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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Sep 2018, 02:27

The blank part of the accommodation graph (on the piccie benny brought in) is smaller than the complement required for running ASW ops; and no transport helos - their extra manning - are allowed for as yet
- max a Company?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 22 Sep 2018, 05:16

benny14 wrote:Was wondering something. This RN graphics seems to suggest 72 is the sortie rate with 24 F-35s. Also note the C2, Magazine and Acom ratios.
Image
Interesting.
1: Impressive that Carrier Strike needs huge magazine (~90%), which means huge logistic support is needed = importance of SSS.
2: Carrier Strike crew number is similar to ship's company. But, is ship's Coy itself is 680 or 733? It looks as if "ship's Coy" is only ~40% of the total accommodation. If the latter is 1600, ship's Coy will be ~640. I guess the graph is not so "exact".
But anyway, very informative and helpful figure. Thanks a lot.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 22 Sep 2018, 06:13

donald_of_tokyo wrote:2: Carrier Strike crew number is similar to ship's company. But, is ship's Coy itself is 680 or 733? It looks as if "ship's Coy" is only ~40% of the total accommodation. If the latter is 1600, ship's Coy will be ~640. I guess the graph is not so "exact"

HMS QEs originally stated crew is around ~680, which may have since grown. You then have the personnel for four squadrons which I think could easily go up to 600-800 personnel. There will also be up to a company of Royal Marines for personnel recovery with 2-3 MK-4 Merlins.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:The blank part of the accommodation graph (on the piccie benny brought in) is smaller than the complement required for running ASW ops; and no transport helos - their extra manning - are allowed for as yet
- max a Company?

I would guess its extra bunks and/or room for a RM company.

I like this graphic, which I think reinforces the point made about the helicopter airgroup been smaller when the carrier is operating with 36 F-35s. States that the ASW package will be distributed across the maritime task group platforms.

Image

24 F-35s, 3 Osprey, 3 Merlin AEW and 8 Merlins. :D
Image

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 22 Sep 2018, 08:08

Japan has bought 17 SV22. But, because it was some political decision, Ground Self-Defence-Force was not actually ready for it. Operational cost of 17 V22 amounts to very large fraction of that of the whole helicopter fleet JGSDF has. On the other hand, JGSDF lacks AH capability, because they failed to purchase Apaches (terminated with only 13).

How about "exchanging" 20 of your 50 Apaches AH64E with 9 of JSDF V-22? This will give UK a fleet of
- 30 Apache AH64E
- 9 SV22, can be used for COD and AA refuel. (may be 3 onboard QLNZ)

Japan will have
- 13 Apache D
- 20 Apache E
- and 8 SV22.

I agree this is fantasy as for now, but as a defense collaboration, this will be an interesting idea? AAR capability will dramatically improve the interdiction operation of F35B ?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 22 Sep 2018, 08:27

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I agree this is fantasy as for now, but as a defense collaboration, this will be an interesting idea? AAR capability will dramatically improve the interdiction operation of F35B ?

While getting V-22s is important, I don't think we can afford to get rid of Apaches. They have a very important role in supporting the Army and the littoral maneuver aspect of carrier strike.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Sep 2018, 09:08

Nice piccies;
benny14 wrote: There will also be up to a company of Royal Marines for personnel recovery with 2-3 MK-4 Merlins.

Seems that in littoral manoeuvre the emphasis (when there is more infantry, for more extensive ops) in force protection shifts to CASEVAC, with Chinooks... they can, of course, be used for other things, too

benny14 wrote:States that the ASW package will be distributed across the maritime task group platforms.

Statement by omission? Makes ultimate sense, but where do you see it?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 22 Sep 2018, 09:17

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
benny14 wrote:States that the ASW package will be distributed across the maritime task group platforms.

Statement by omission? Makes ultimate sense, but where do you see it?
Bottom left of slide

FP RW (Mer Mk2) spread across MTG platforms

[Translation]

Force Protection Rotary Wing (Merlin Mk2) [i.e. Merlin ASW] will be spread across the Maritime Task Group platforms

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 22 Sep 2018, 09:40

benny14 wrote:
Aethulwulf wrote: The carrier was designed to be capable of an initial 24 hour surge of 108 sorties (36 × 3), with a sustained rate of 72 sorties per day (36 × 2). Everything was designed around these sortie rates and an aircraft load of 36 F35b and 4 Merlin AEW.

Was wondering something. This RN graphics seems to suggest 72 is the sortie rate with 24 F-35s. Also note the C2, Magazine and Acom ratios.
Image
When I first saw this slide, I was also struck by the suggestion of 72 sortie rate from 24 F35s. I'm not sure if this a short term surge rate or a long term sustain rate. Either way, the ships infrastructure is designed to cope.

If it is a sustainable rate, it clearly implies an average of 3 sorties per day from each F35. This would be very impressive. Clearly it depends upon the amount and ease of maintenance the F35 requires.

Of course, there are sorties and there are sorties. A CAP sortie is not the same as a QRA sortie, which is not the same as a 400km strike sortie, which is not the same as a 800 km strike sortie, etc.

It is also stated that this is a Best Effort situation, i.e. a true crisis, and not something to be expected as a routine deployment.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 22 Sep 2018, 09:44

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Seems that in littoral manoeuvre the emphasis (when there is more infantry, for more extensive ops) in force protection shifts to CASEVAC, with Chinooks... they can, of course, be used for other things, too

The littoral maneuver package I have saw includes...

9 x Merlin ASW (820 NAS),
5 x Merlin AEW (849 NAS),
12 x Merlin Mk4 (845 NAS),
6 x Wildcat (847 NAS),
3 x Chinook,
8 x Apache,
2 x RM companies.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 22 Sep 2018, 10:08

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
benny14 wrote:Was wondering something. This RN graphics seems to suggest 72 is the sortie rate with 24 F-35s. Also note the C2, Magazine and Acom ratios.
Image
Interesting.
1: Impressive that Carrier Strike needs huge magazine (~90%), which means huge logistic support is needed = importance of SSS.
2: Carrier Strike crew number is similar to ship's company. But, is ship's Coy itself is 680 or 733? It looks as if "ship's Coy" is only ~40% of the total accommodation. If the latter is 1600, ship's Coy will be ~640. I guess the graph is not so "exact".
But anyway, very informative and helpful figure. Thanks a lot.
If we dig a little deeper into the magazine question, 72 F35 sorties a day could in theory expend 144 Paveway Mk4 a day, against 144 different targets. If ASW is 10% of carrier strike, that means around 14 Stingrays used a day (in very rough numbers). Could that be against 14 different submarines? No. So it implies multiple attacks against single submarines and against false targets. So the design provision for the ASW magazine had to include an estimate of the likely number of attacks against false targets.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 22 Sep 2018, 10:19

Aethulwulf wrote:If we dig a little deeper into the magazine question, 72 F35 sorties a day could in theory expend 144 Paveway Mk4 a day, against 144 different targets. If ASW is 10% of carrier strike, that means around 14 Stingrays used a day (in very rough numbers). Could that be against 14 different submarines? No. So it implies multiple attacks against single submarines and against false targets. So the design provision for the ASW magazine had to include an estimate of the likely number of attacks against false targets.
Not sure. Regardless of how many AS torpedoes are used, we need a certain magazine load. May be ~6 torpedos each for at least 9, and possibly 14 Merlins. This amounts to 54-84 AS torpedoes. Not small. We also need certain amount of sonobuoys, just to continue ASW surveillance. It does not necessarily mean "attacks against false targets", I guess.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 22 Sep 2018, 11:17

Speaking as a ex RAF officer I feel the navy should be given 80 F-35 Bs which should be laid out in 6 Squadrons of 10 aircraft with the RAF getting 80 aircraft laid out as they see fit there should be a joint OCU and deep maintenance unit at Marham which each service will fund and operate. For me this would allow the carriers to embark 2 squadrons = 20 aircraft on normal deployments and 3 squadrons = 30 ciacraft when on combat deployments this would allow proper time for Carrier and air wing to work up pre-deployment.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 22 Sep 2018, 11:25

I am very surprised that all the F35Bs will be soley owned by the RAF I would of thought it would of been better to have a joint ownership to stop any rivalry getting in the way and to make clear it's a equal partnership

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 22 Sep 2018, 11:36

Tempest414 wrote:Speaking as a ex RAF officer I feel the navy should be given 80 F-35 Bs which should be laid out in 6 Squadrons of 10 aircraft with the RAF getting 80 aircraft laid out as they see fit there should be a joint OCU and deep maintenance unit at Marham which each service will fund and operate. For me this would allow the carriers to embark 2 squadrons = 20 aircraft on normal deployments and 3 squadrons = 30 ciacraft when on combat deployments this would allow proper time for Carrier and air wing to work up pre-deployment.

Sounds nice, but neither service can afford 80 of their own.

Then there is the manpower side, there will barely be enough to operate four squadrons in total. We are dumping two Typhoon squadrons to form the 3rd and 4th F-35 squadrons.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 22 Sep 2018, 11:53

benny14 wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:Speaking as a ex RAF officer I feel the navy should be given 80 F-35 Bs which should be laid out in 6 Squadrons of 10 aircraft with the RAF getting 80 aircraft laid out as they see fit there should be a joint OCU and deep maintenance unit at Marham which each service will fund and operate. For me this would allow the carriers to embark 2 squadrons = 20 aircraft on normal deployments and 3 squadrons = 30 ciacraft when on combat deployments this would allow proper time for Carrier and air wing to work up pre-deployment.

Sounds nice, but neither service can afford 80 of their own.

Then there is the manpower side, there will barely be enough to operate four squadrons in total. We are dumping two Typhoon squadrons to form the 3rd and 4th F-35 squadrons.


What about when the tornadoes go out of service won't that free up personal for more squadrons ?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 22 Sep 2018, 12:18

Jake1992 wrote:What about when the tornadoes go out of service won't that free up personal for more squadrons ?

Of the two Tornado squadrons, one is converting to Typhoon and the other to Protector. The two Typhoon T1 squadrons will transition to F-35 in the late 2020s or 2030s.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 22 Sep 2018, 12:18

The fast jet fleet will out to 2040 consists of 7 typhoon and 2 f35 sqns. I wouldn’t at all be surprised if that increases to 8 and 3 respectively with notional a/c establishment likely reducing to 10 and 9 respectivly budgets permitting.


Tempest I agree in part continuous carrier strike as originally envisaged makes sense if we were to transition to a fast jet fleet of one type which was entirely carrier capable. When it became clear that was not happening before carrier construction began the whole concept size and scale became questionable.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 22 Sep 2018, 12:33

benny14 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:What about when the tornadoes go out of service won't that free up personal for more squadrons ?

Of the two Tornado squadrons, one is converting to Typhoon and the other to Protector. The two Typhoon T1 squadrons will transition to F-35 in the late 2020s or 2030s.


That really does show that there's a major need for an uptake in personal then

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Sep 2018, 12:41

SW1 wrote: I wouldn’t at all be surprised if that increases to 8 and 3 respectively


I would tend to agree. Also,
was digging into some of the old statements (mind you, when the 2010 SDSR was published, they were going for the "C").
24 on carriers
18 in OCU and training (OCU will peak at some point and start to shrink, making the 3rs sqdrn possible, or at least "real" and providing the surge on carriers, were that ever to happen)
add the 4 test a/c to the 42, and you are only off by 2 from the current figure (attrition reserve for a decade?)

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 22 Sep 2018, 12:45

re:
Jake1992 wrote:really does show that there's a major need for an uptake in personal then


There is, on p.7, a nice graph here, showing that of the Services only the Navy has managed to stabilise the difference between outflow and inflow https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 1-_SPS.pdf

Now, about the uptake...?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby CR4ZYHOR5E » 22 Sep 2018, 13:24

Some nice shots of the deck (new orange arrows?) from a local news report...



Suggests the ship will sail on Sunday.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 22 Sep 2018, 13:40

Video not working here. will try again....



Also, found a nice 360° video from QE's flightdeck.

If it doesnt work here, click the "Youtube" symbol.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby serge750 » 22 Sep 2018, 16:46

How about "exchanging" 20 of your 50 Apaches AH64E with 9 of JSDF V-22? This will give UK a fleet of
- 30 Apache AH64E
- 9 SV22, can be used for COD and AA refuel. (may be 3 onboard QLNZ)

Japan will have
- 13 Apache D
- 20 Apache E
- and 8 SV22.

I agree this is fantasy as for now, but as a defense collaboration, this will be an interesting idea? AAR capability will dramatically improve the interdiction operation of F35B ?[/quote]

Sounds good to me :thumbup:

I do like the Ospreys & they would be good for faster troop insertion (obviously would cost more to run, but...) then follow on with chinocks/merlins...

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 22 Sep 2018, 17:33

benny14 wrote:Of the two Tornado squadrons, one is converting to Typhoon and the other to Protector. The two Typhoon T1 squadrons will transition to F-35 in the late 2020s or 2030s.


!2 Sqn moved from Tornado to typhoon in Aug this year and 9 Sqn converts next year. As for F-35 I can say now the RAF will do what it can to hinder carrier ops and the carrier will always take second place as far as the RAF is concerned

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 22 Sep 2018, 18:23

Tempest414 wrote:2 Sqn moved from Tornado to typhoon in Aug this year and 9 Sqn converts next year.

By 2019/2020 there will be 7 Typhoon and 1 F-35 squadrons. When the 3rd and 4th F-35 squadrons are formed, the two T1 Typhoon squadrons will swap over, giving us 5 Typhoon and 4 F-35 squadrons.

There is talk of an 8th Typhoon squadron been formed in the early 2020s due to Typhoon availability rates been significantly improved, and potentially by taking airframes from the other 7.


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