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Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Jake1992
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 20 Sep 2018, 19:33

benny14 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:Is that 40 F35s or 40 aircraft over all ?
If it's 40 over all I call bull as the RN would never design a carrier to operate 36 F35s but only plan on 4 helos to cover ASW AEW and GP let alone adding AAR and COD carrier

Because the normal plan is for 24 F-35s and helicopters. 36 F-35s is in the absolute extreme. In such an instance it would likely be operating with a significant amount of escort/support ships and the other carrier, which would all be packing helicopters.

40 is the optimal air group, but it could likely go up to 50 aircraft with decreased efficiency. 50 at the absolutely maximum, any more and you would not be able to operate.


Why on earth would the RN ask for a carrier that can operate at least 36 F35s but say it's ok if we can't really fit the helos on that we need ? It would make no sence at all and the RN are not that stupid.

To operate 36 F35s the QE would need to be able to operate at least 50 aircraft and that's not including any AAR or COD

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 20 Sep 2018, 20:11

People are in for real shock with what is considered “normal” fast jet deployments if we’re looking for numbers of fastjets in double figures deploying anywhere. Normal uk fastjet squadron deployments is 8 a/c only rising to 10 if high intensity sortie generation is required.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 20 Sep 2018, 20:22

SW1 wrote:People are in for real shock with what is considered “normal” fast jet deployments if we’re looking for numbers of fastjets in double figures deploying anywhere. Normal uk fastjet squadron deployments is 8 a/c only rising to 10 if high intensity sortie generation is required.


Really I thought the initial plan was for 12 and then that changed to 24 due to bad media coverage ?
I haven't heard anything that has changed that or did miss something ?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 20 Sep 2018, 20:34

Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:People are in for real shock with what is considered “normal” fast jet deployments if we’re looking for numbers of fastjets in double figures deploying anywhere. Normal uk fastjet squadron deployments is 8 a/c only rising to 10 if high intensity sortie generation is required.


Really I thought the initial plan was for 12 and then that changed to 24 due to bad media coverage ?
I haven't heard anything that has changed that or did miss something ?


There is lots of plans, I’m merely pointing out what has been standard uk Sqn deployment numbers for decades. The initial QE carrier deployment will have a significant number of us marince Corp fast jets onboard. We are a very significant time away from getting 24 uk f35s deployed anywhere, only the RAF tornado gr force has deployed that many jets anywhere and that was to the two gulf wars and they were a operational force nearly 4 times the size of f35.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Sep 2018, 21:08

benny14 wrote:36 F-35s is in the extreme. In such an instance it would likely be operating with a significant amount of escort/support ships and the other carrier, which would all be packing helicopters.


Guess ( not @benny) how the 48 number for the initial purchase was derived?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby seaspear » 20 Sep 2018, 21:33

Martin Douglas the chief engineer of Aircraft Carrier Alliance stated that " the carrier was capable of 72 fast jet sorties in 24 hours (night and day) and that this could be increased if needed" (how many jets?)
Naval Technology journal stated a maximum of 110 in surge conditions (how many jets?)
Perhaps questions should be what is the sortie rate required for standard deployments of fast jets for the carrier ?
What is the down time for maintenance checks after for a f35b and does this effect sortie rate ? the U.S.N in its trials may be in a position to know .

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 20 Sep 2018, 21:34

SW1 wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:
SW1 wrote:People are in for real shock with what is considered “normal” fast jet deployments if we’re looking for numbers of fastjets in double figures deploying anywhere. Normal uk fastjet squadron deployments is 8 a/c only rising to 10 if high intensity sortie generation is required.


Really I thought the initial plan was for 12 and then that changed to 24 due to bad media coverage ?
I haven't heard anything that has changed that or did miss something ?


There is lots of plans, I’m merely pointing out what has been standard uk Sqn deployment numbers for decades. The initial QE carrier deployment will have a significant number of us marince Corp fast jets onboard. We are a very significant time away from getting 24 uk f35s deployed anywhere, only the RAF tornado gr force has deployed that many jets anywhere and that was to the two gulf wars and they were a operational force nearly 4 times the size of f35.


Not arguing the numbers, but isn't there a difference in terms of airframes being present on the carrier and actually being "deployed"? Considering that at any one time some airframes from the total pool of fighters of whatever type will be deployed, some in maintenance and some in storage, in tge case of tge F35b won't some of those in (low level) maintenence and storage be maintained/stored on the QE when deployed (rather than Mareham) but not deployed per se?
Wouldn't this make sense to ensure that 1) additional airframes are in situ should an emergency break out, and 2) allow the QE crew and F35 maintainers to routinely train and operate in the busier environment that they one day will have to when larger airwings are required?

I've asked that in a really uninteligable way, but I guess my question is, when a USN deploys a carrier with ca. 60 jets, or the French carrier deploys with ca. 30, is each and every airframe actively operated? I.e. are all of the airframes immediately available for use?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Jake1992 » 20 Sep 2018, 21:40

A question Iv been wondering could the QEs have the 20m odd infront of the forward island added as per the orginal design if ever desired to increase the capacity ?

If so how much do we think it'd cost and how long would it take per carrier ?

Or would I be cheaper to just build new ?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Sep 2018, 22:06

dmereifield wrote:t I guess my question is, when a USN deploys a carrier with ca. 60 jets, or the French carrier deploys with ca. 30, is each and every airframe actively operated? I.e. are all of the airframes immediately available for use?



There must be endless stats for US carriers (anyone?), but I would pullout the 85% for USAFE fighter sqdrns (goes drastically down for those at a "home base") and in excess of 90% for the CdG carrier wing.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 20 Sep 2018, 22:33

seaspear wrote:Martin Douglas the chief engineer of Aircraft Carrier Alliance stated that " the carrier was capable of 72 fast jet sorties in 24 hours (night and day) and that this could be increased if needed" (how many jets?)
Naval Technology journal stated a maximum of 110 in surge conditions (how many jets?)
Perhaps questions should be what is the sortie rate required for standard deployments of fast jets for the carrier ?
What is the down time for maintenance checks after for a f35b and does this effect sortie rate ? the U.S.N in its trials may be in a position to know .
This is pretty much correct. The carrier was designed to be capable of an initial 24 hour surge of 108 sorties (36 × 3), with a sustained rate of 72 sorties per day (36 × 2). Everything was designed around these sortie rates and an aircraft load of 36 F35b and 4 Merlin AEW. This set the size of the magazines and weapon prep areas, the resupply rates required for FSS and Tide, the amount of fresh water needed from the reverse osmosis plants, the aircraft refuelling infrastructure, etc. etc. The ship has 4 squadron briefing rooms - 3 for F35 squadrons and 1 for a Merlin squadron. The same goes for the number of maintenance workshops.

Other aircraft load outs were also considered. If 9 Merlin ASW are also required in submarine threat areas, the max number of F35s drops to around 30 and the F35 max sortie rate also drops. So, although this load out has more aircraft (30 F35, 14 Merlin), it is less demanding in most ship requirements than 36 F35 and 4 Merlin (except for number of bunks required).

Now this is where it gets confusing...

Although QE is designed for a max of 36 F35s, the design actually has "parking space" capacity for 46 - 48 F35s. 24 spaces on the flightdeck and 22/24 in the hanger. Why? Becauae the experience of the RN and the USN is that when you load an carrier with more aircraft than 80% capacity, the sortie generation rate actually goes down. Instead of generating sorties, you waste time playing complicated games moving around many aircraft just to get access to the ones you need. So, to maximise the sortie generation rate, at 80% of full load capacity QE can carry 36 F35s.

So there is the physical space for an extra ~12 F35s, but this empty space is needed to maximise the sortie rate.

And while the hanger/flight deck might have space for upto 48 F35s, the ship does not have the extra bunks required, or magazine space, or workshops, or Squadron briefing rooms, etc. to cope with this number of F35s.

Of course, since all these design decisions were made many years ago, it has become very clear that the actual number of F35s on board is now unlikely to get anywhere close to 36 (unless this includes many non-UK jets).

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SW1 » 20 Sep 2018, 22:42

Dmerefield

When the airforce deploy a Sqn anywhere in the world away from homebase they are deployed. They send the aircraft in the best condition and those furthest away from their next minor or major service to give the deployed engineers the best chance of getting aircraft ready each day. Sortie numbers required will determine crew numbers flight and ground and how many jets they sent. For example if you needed 4 a/c to fly twice a day you’ll need 7 pilots and 2 shifts of engineers say around 60. The more a/c you deploy the more work you give the engineers and the more spares you need to take, if you intend to fly all the a/c and you reduce the number of jets the people left at base have to fly on to maintain currency. So you only take the number of aircraft you require to meet the intended sortie rate.

Numbers will depend greatly on what the reason for the deployment is if it’s just training you may take non combat ready crews, if it’s a major exercise you may only take combat ready crews if it’s deploying for 24/7 combat operations ect.

So if it’s an actual operational deployment a Sqn may only have 16 combat ready crews so you usually have 2 crews per aircraft and to give the engineers a chance to support the sortie rate you deploy 10 a/c two of which act as fwd deployed spares. Big exercises red flag usually 8 a/c. QRAs like in the balkans/Cyprus 4 or 6 a/c.

Ultimately you can always increasing the funding and increasing manning and flying hours,more maintenance budgets and ultimately a shorter a/c service life but doing that would be something very new for us.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 20 Sep 2018, 23:16

SW1 wrote:Dmerefield

When the airforce deploy a Sqn anywhere in the world away from homebase they are deployed. They send the aircraft in the best condition and those furthest away from their next minor or major service to give the deployed engineers the best chance of getting aircraft ready each day. Sortie numbers required will determine crew numbers flight and ground and how many jets they sent. For example if you needed 4 a/c to fly twice a day you’ll need 7 pilots and 2 shifts of engineers say around 60. The more a/c you deploy the more work you give the engineers and the more spares you need to take, if you intend to fly all the a/c and you reduce the number of jets the people left at base have to fly on to maintain currency. So you only take the number of aircraft you require to meet the intended sortie rate.

Numbers will depend greatly on what the reason for the deployment is if it’s just training you may take non combat ready crews, if it’s a major exercise you may only take combat ready crews if it’s deploying for 24/7 combat operations ect.

So if it’s an actual operational deployment a Sqn may only have 16 combat ready crews so you usually have 2 crews per aircraft and to give the engineers a chance to support the sortie rate you deploy 10 a/c two of which act as fwd deployed spares. Big exercises red flag usually 8 a/c. QRAs like in the balkans/Cyprus 4 or 6 a/c.

Ultimately you can always increasing the funding and increasing manning and flying hours,more maintenance budgets and ultimately a shorter a/c service life but doing that would be something very new for us.


Thanks

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 20 Sep 2018, 23:22

Jake1992 wrote:Really I thought the initial plan was for 12 and then that changed to 24 due to bad media coverage?

Still 12, although that means next to nothing. The airgroup will be dictated by what is needed and available, not a fixed number.

Jake1992 wrote:Why on earth would the RN ask for a carrier that can operate at least 36 F35s but say it's ok if we can't really fit the helos on that we need ? It would make no sence at all and the RN are not that stupid.

To operate 36 F35s the QE would need to be able to operate at least 50 aircraft and that's not including any AAR or COD

Because when operating in the 36 F-35 configuration, it operates with a smaller helicopter airgroup.

Aethulwulf wrote:So there is the physical space for an extra ~12 F35s, but this empty space is needed to maximise the sortie rate.

One of the best consolidated explanations of the airgroup size I have read. :thumbup:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Ron5 » 21 Sep 2018, 01:36

Aethulwulf wrote:
seaspear wrote:Martin Douglas the chief engineer of Aircraft Carrier Alliance stated that " the carrier was capable of 72 fast jet sorties in 24 hours (night and day) and that this could be increased if needed" (how many jets?)
Naval Technology journal stated a maximum of 110 in surge conditions (how many jets?)
Perhaps questions should be what is the sortie rate required for standard deployments of fast jets for the carrier ?
What is the down time for maintenance checks after for a f35b and does this effect sortie rate ? the U.S.N in its trials may be in a position to know .
This is pretty much correct. The carrier was designed to be capable of an initial 24 hour surge of 108 sorties (36 × 3), with a sustained rate of 72 sorties per day (36 × 2). Everything was designed around these sortie rates and an aircraft load of 36 F35b and 4 Merlin AEW. This set the size of the magazines and weapon prep areas, the resupply rates required for FSS and Tide, the amount of fresh water needed from the reverse osmosis plants, the aircraft refuelling infrastructure, etc. etc. The ship has 4 squadron briefing rooms - 3 for F35 squadrons and 1 for a Merlin squadron. The same goes for the number of maintenance workshops.

Other aircraft load outs were also considered. If 9 Merlin ASW are also required in submarine threat areas, the max number of F35s drops to around 30 and the F35 max sortie rate also drops. So, although this load out has more aircraft (30 F35, 14 Merlin), it is less demanding in most ship requirements than 36 F35 and 4 Merlin (except for number of bunks required).

Now this is where it gets confusing...

Although QE is designed for a max of 36 F35s, the design actually has "parking space" capacity for 46 - 48 F35s. 24 spaces on the flightdeck and 22/24 in the hanger. Why? Becauae the experience of the RN and the USN is that when you load an carrier with more aircraft than 80% capacity, the sortie generation rate actually goes down. Instead of generating sorties, you waste time playing complicated games moving around many aircraft just to get access to the ones you need. So, to maximise the sortie generation rate, at 80% of full load capacity QE can carry 36 F35s.

So there is the physical space for an extra ~12 F35s, but this empty space is needed to maximise the sortie rate.

And while the hanger/flight might have space for upto 48 F35s, the ship does not have the extra bunks required, or magazine space, or workshops, or Squadron briefing rooms, etc. to cope with this number of F35s.

Of course, since all these design decisions were made many years ago, it has become very clear that the actual number of F35s on board is now unlikely to get anywhere close to 36 (unless this includes many non-UK jets).


Can you share the source(s) of your info? Thanks.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 21 Sep 2018, 06:19

French CDG carrier deploys with
- 2001: 16 Super Etendards, 2 Rafale, 1 Hawkeye +
- 2010: 12 Super Etendards, 10 Rafale, 2 Hawkeye +
- 2012: 7 Super Etendards, 7 Rafale, 2 Hawkeye +
- 2015: 9 Super Etendards, 12 Rafale, 2 Hawkeye +
- 2015: 8 Super Etendards, 18 Rafale = 31-34 in total as "a larger than normal air wing"
- 2016: 24 Rafale +

For me, if CVF deploys with 24 F35B, 13 Merlin, and a few Wildcat, it is great enough. Merlin is not small.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 21 Sep 2018, 07:08

Ron5 wrote:Can you share the source(s) of your info? Thanks.
Can I just say "work" and avoid any possible trouble for myself.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Sep 2018, 08:28

@benny: the right answer, straight away :( ... hence "the" not :) @benny

The early diagrams of how many F-35s to fit were quite amusing as there would have been no way to change the order in which to take the a/c to the lift.

That v good summary, incl.
"The ship has 4 squadron briefing rooms - 3 for F35 squadrons and 1 for a Merlin squadron"
brought a question to my mind: AEW Merlins have own sqdrn command (space/ facilities) whereas the ASW ones do not
- does this reflect the integrated nature of ASW operations (a Merlin is a flying frigate etc) and imply that the sensor inputs are managed directly through the CMS?
- or am I reading too much into it (given as an example, only?)?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Aethulwulf » 21 Sep 2018, 09:27

ArmChairCivvy wrote:@benny: the right answer, straight away :( ... hence "the" not :) @benny

The early diagrams of how many F-35s to fit were quite amusing as there would have been no way to change the order in which to take the a/c to the lift.

That v good summary, incl.
"The ship has 4 squadron briefing rooms - 3 for F35 squadrons and 1 for a Merlin squadron"
brought a question to my mind: AEW Merlins have own sqdrn command (space/ facilities) whereas the ASW ones do not
- does this reflect the integrated nature of ASW operations (a Merlin is a flying frigate etc) and imply that the sensor inputs are managed directly through the CMS?
- or am I reading too much into it (given as an example, only?)?
You're taking my example too literally. The four briefing rooms will be assigned as required to the squadrons on board. If there are 24 F35, 9 Merlin ASW and 5 Merlin Crowsnest, I would expect two briefing rooms for the two F35 squadrons, one room for Merlin ASW and one for Crowsnest.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby benny14 » 21 Sep 2018, 09:29

donald_of_tokyo wrote:- 2015: 8 Super Etendards, 18 Rafale = 31-34 in total as "a larger than normal air wing"
- 2016: 24 Rafale +

For me, if CVF deploys with 24 F35B, 13 Merlin, and a few Wildcat, it is great enough. Merlin is not small.

Something to note here, in 2015 they had two Rafale squadrons, whereas by 2016 they had transitioned their final Etendard squadron to Rafale. So they managed 18 with two squadrons and 24 with three squadrons. These are all front line squadrons, they share a separate OCU with the air force. They also pack 2-5 helicopters on their deployments.

If we can manage ~18 onboard by 2023, with some juicy helicopters then I will be happy. Will be interesting to see how many we put on in 2021, with 617 Squadron and the USMC.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:@benny: the right answer, straight away :( ... hence "the" not :) @benny

I removed it. Please look in to the light... :geek: Flash

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Sep 2018, 09:33

Aethulwulf wrote:You're taking my example too literally.

Thx, I thought so.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby Tempest414 » 21 Sep 2018, 13:15

benny14 wrote:Will be interesting to see how many we put on in 2021, with 617 Squadron and the USMC.


I would go with 12 USMC jets and a mixed aircrew or at a push 12 USMC and 6 UK jets

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 21 Sep 2018, 13:25


(Royal Navy) 19th September 2018
Life-saving medical services have been cleared to operate on board the Royal Navy’s new aircraft carrier, as she prepares to land fighter jets her deck for the very first time.

More: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... -elizabeth

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby SKB » 21 Sep 2018, 13:50


Idea:
Imagine if the islands and ramp were retractable, like Marineville HQ when on battle stations in "Stingray" ?! :mrgreen:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby dmereifield » 21 Sep 2018, 14:01

Tempest414 wrote:
benny14 wrote:Will be interesting to see how many we put on in 2021, with 617 Squadron and the USMC.


I would go with 12 USMC jets and a mixed aircrew or at a push 12 USMC and 6 UK jets


Are you seriously suggesting that ("12 USMC jets and a mixed aircrew") on her maiden deployment there is a chance that she will carry no UK F35s? Imagine the negative PR. I seriously doubt that will be the case. I'd suggest (pure speculation!) something more like 8-10 UK F35s plus 6-8 USMC is more likely

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Postby shotleylad » 21 Sep 2018, 14:43

More USMC jets than UK. I cannot see that happening.


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