Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[Halidon]

France maybe??

Not without a change in government, for both. If France builds a full-size carrier in partnership with anyone in the immediate future, it would probably be Italy.

[ArmChairCivvy]

and maybe India

The US is very keen to help India's carrier prgrm and tie it in with interoperability (catapult system, F-35s...). This has been going on since 2015 and India Times reported on the latest, in July:
"The fourth meeting of the JWGACTC constituted under the Indo - US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative, was organised in India from October 29 to November 3.

A 13 member US delegation, headed by Rear Admiral Brian Antonio, Program Executive Officer Aircraft Carriers...

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61492506.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

The reason is the same as with us: Have UK/ France see to the Med and, at times, the Gulf... add India for, errr, the Indian Ocean, and that's the way of getting the US carriers to where they want them to be

[Jake1992]

and maybe India

The US is very keen to help India's carrier prgrm and tie it in with interoperability (catapult system, F-35s...). This has been going on since 2015 and India Times reported on the latest, in July:
"The fourth meeting of the JWGACTC constituted under the Indo - US Defence Trade and Technology Initiative, was organised in India from October 29 to November 3.

A 13 member US delegation, headed by Rear Admiral Brian Antonio, Program Executive Officer Aircraft Carriers...

Read more at:
//economictimes.indiatimes.com/articleshow/61492506.cms?utm_source=contentofinterest&utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=cppst

The reason is the same as with us: Have UK/ France see to the Med and, at times, the Gulf... add India for, errr, the Indian Ocean, and that's the way of getting the US carriers to where they want them to be

I'd like to see them get there new 40,000tn up a going first, Iv read they have also been playing with the Russians in carrier descustions on the 3rd flat top which could put a spaner in the works.

But I do see them more likely than France to join the "super" carrier group.

[dmereifield]

Maybe if Russia wants a new carrier or 2 they should ask India to build them 40 to 45,000 ton able to operate 40 or so aircraft

That's one option or they could ask China, but I just can't see them doing it for national pride sake.

I can only see 4 nations tops have "super" carriers in the future, UK, USA, China and maybe India

Agreed, but they did swallow their pride and contract the French to build the 2 Mistrals...

[Jake1992]

Maybe if Russia wants a new carrier or 2 they should ask India to build them 40 to 45,000 ton able to operate 40 or so aircraft

That's one option or they could ask China, but I just can't see them doing it for national pride sake.

I can only see 4 nations tops have "super" carriers in the future, UK, USA, China and maybe India

Agreed, but they did swallow their pride and contract the French to build the 2 Mistrals...

Very true but a carrier the flag ship and one of such national bosting would be something I couldn't see them built else where, so I can't see it being built at all.

Imagain us asking France or the USA to build the QEs the hit to national pride and wgat other nations would think

[dmereifield]

Maybe if Russia wants a new carrier or 2 they should ask India to build them 40 to 45,000 ton able to operate 40 or so aircraft

That's one option or they could ask China, but I just can't see them doing it for national pride sake.

I can only see 4 nations tops have "super" carriers in the future, UK, USA, China and maybe India

Agreed, but they did swallow their pride and contract the French to build the 2 Mistrals...

Very true but a carrier the flag ship and one of such national bosting would be something I couldn't see them built else where, so I can't see it being built at all.

Imagain us asking France or the USA to build the QEs the hit to national pride and wgat other nations would think

Yeah I don't see it happeningnunless it was spun as some lindnof joint/collaborative project with Country X that contained a significant Russian contribution via design, building of some ofthe blocks/sections and kit etc...might be able to spin and stomach that...but I guess there aren't any suitable partners and a lack of roubles for it to happen...

[Clive F]

France could build a QE with cats etc? Most of the design work is done.

[Timmymagic]

rance could build a QE with cats etc? Most of the design work is done.

They were going to. They paid £100m for access to the design. It was called PA.2. Got cancelled an age back.

But we kept the £100m

[inch]

think there is different newer French designs now nothing to do with qe design ,not sure how big they are but they looked as large if not larger than qe class ,cant remember which site they were on now though

[seaspear]

Atleast still a bit bigger than the invisibles , if we had wanted size of american or future chinese or russian future carrier if they ever get around to financing it at 110,000 ton. I think i read im sure we could have built one or2 but as we prob dont need that size i quess she will do

Well at -
70,200tn ( maybe push to 72,000tn )
284m long
73m
Beam
Up to 70 odd aircraft
250 - 900 RM
All for just £3.2bn each they pack quiet a punch compared to most ( 2/3 the capability for 1/3 the cost of the US carriers )
Iv read that China plans on 2 x 85,000tn carrier and then 2 x 100,000+ carriers for a fleet of 6 over all. How true this is and weather it'll happen who knows ( I wouldng bet against it )

I really can't see the Russian storm carrier design coming to ote, they havnt got the funding for it with more pressing needs they also havnt got a facility large enough to build it, so would have to build all that infrastructure on top of the carrier its self

Its often quoted as two thirds of the capability for half the price I think its comparing apples and oranges with that quote perhaps two thirds of the size would be closer to the mark , certainly the capabilities of the Nimitz and Ford class often dont directly compare to the Q.E classif not the capacity

[Jake1992]

Atleast still a bit bigger than the invisibles , if we had wanted size of american or future chinese or russian future carrier if they ever get around to financing it at 110,000 ton. I think i read im sure we could have built one or2 but as we prob dont need that size i quess she will do

Well at -
70,200tn ( maybe push to 72,000tn )
284m long
73m
Beam
Up to 70 odd aircraft
250 - 900 RM
All for just £3.2bn each they pack quiet a punch compared to most ( 2/3 the capability for 1/3 the cost of the US carriers )
Iv read that China plans on 2 x 85,000tn carrier and then 2 x 100,000+ carriers for a fleet of 6 over all. How true this is and weather it'll happen who knows ( I wouldng bet against it )

I really can't see the Russian storm carrier design coming to ote, they havnt got the funding for it with more pressing needs they also havnt got a facility large enough to build it, so would have to build all that infrastructure on top of the carrier its self

Its often quoted as two thirds of the capability for half the price I think its comparing apples and oranges with that quote perhaps two thirds of the size would be closer to the mark , certainly the capabilities of the Nimitz and Ford class often dont directly compare to the Q.E classif not the capacity

I look to judge it on what fire power each could put out of properly equipped.

For me if money was there the QEs could be loaded out as such:
42 x F35B
6 x F35B ( electronic warfare upgrade )
5 x EV-22 for AEW
2 x V-22 for AAR
2 x V-22 for COD
9 x Merlin ASW
4 x GP aircraft

That load out seems to offer 2/3 of what a Nimitz can, yes some part are arguable ( EV-22 compared to Hawkeye )

[Timmymagic]

That load out seems to offer 2/3 of what a Nimitz can, yes some part are arguable ( EV-22 compared to Hawkeye )

Normal USN airwings are c64 aircraft these days.

So thats a bigger airgroup than a US CVN...that deck would be so crowded it would do less sorties than 36 F-35B with Merlin.

[benny14]

For me if money was there the QEs could be loaded out as such:
42 x F35B
6 x F35B ( electronic warfare upgrade )
5 x EV-22 for AEW
2 x V-22 for AAR
2 x V-22 for COD
9 x Merlin ASW
4 x GP aircraft

Dam... The current assumption for Ford's airwing is around ~70 aircraft. You want to overload QE with 70 aircraft when she is designed to efficiently operate around 40.

[ArmChairCivvy]

think there is different newer French designs now nothing to do with qe design ,not sure how big they are but they looked as large if not larger than qe class ,cant remember which site they were on now though

Can't remember either, but there seems to be a "problem" with only one type of nuclear generator (the one from their subs) available, so the jump in size - depending on whether 2 or 3 will be used - is quite a big one. Rather than defining what it will need to be able to do, and then optimise the size for that.

[djkeos]

Was it at www.meretmarine.com ?

[Aethulwulf]

I look to judge it on what fire power each could put out of properly equipped.

For me if money was there the QEs could be loaded out as such:
42 x F35B
6 x F35B ( electronic warfare upgrade )
5 x EV-22 for AEW
2 x V-22 for AAR
2 x V-22 for COD
9 x Merlin ASW
4 x GP aircraft

That load out seems to offer 2/3 of what a Nimitz can, yes some part are arguable ( EV-22 compared to Hawkeye )

Posts like this should be banished down into the fantasy thread hell hole.

QE is designed to operate up to 36 F35b and 4 Merlin. Studies have shown that 36 F35b flying cyclic ops would not also allow deck space for 9 Merlin flying ASW ops at the same time. There might be the space to store 9 Merlin ASW and 36 F35b, but not to operate them at the same time.

Of course there is a difference between theoretical studies and the real world, which is the point of the flight trials.

However, the idea that QE could operate 70 aircraft is a ludicrous fantasy.

[Dave]

Atleast still a bit bigger than the invisibles

Weren’t they really hard to measure?

[ArmChairCivvy]

There might be the space to store 9 Merlin ASW and 36 F35b, but not to operate them at the same time.

Hence the point I've been making on various threads; the need for a double hanger on such ships
- that routinely accompany the CTF (SSSs, Tides - though the latter ships "already sailed" in this respect)
- and whose size would naturally allow for this, without any/ much penalty in their primary functionality.

Let's assume that it takes 4 Merlins to maintain a 24h cover, for x days - and here we can conveniently forget that some of the escorts also carry ASW Merlins (as you may need to scramble more at short notice to pursue threats detected).
- next! You will need that cover (for x days, there will be a limit to the value of "x" but let;s not complicate this) both in ASW and AEW terms
- that makes for 8 Merlins
- so you can have one(!) with some fault or breakdown that takes longer to fix. Nine sounds like a big number; I would call one " a fine margin"

[Halidon]

Was it at http://www.meretmarine.com ?

Mostly that looks pretty decent, some gripes (3screws? Really?) but nothing major....except for that island. What mad person concocted that and who approved it being on that model.

[Scimitar54]

Strange really, the 2 x photo's are not of the same model.
Lattice Mast on one (Pennant No. R9X) and a plated mast on the other (Pennant No. RXX)!

[Jake1992]

I look to judge it on what fire power each could put out of properly equipped.

For me if money was there the QEs could be loaded out as such:
42 x F35B
6 x F35B ( electronic warfare upgrade )
5 x EV-22 for AEW
2 x V-22 for AAR
2 x V-22 for COD
9 x Merlin ASW
4 x GP aircraft

That load out seems to offer 2/3 of what a Nimitz can, yes some part are arguable ( EV-22 compared to Hawkeye )

Posts like this should be banished down into the fantasy thread hell hole.

QE is designed to operate up to 36 F35b and 4 Merlin. Studies have shown that 36 F35b flying cyclic ops would not also allow deck space for 9 Merlin flying ASW ops at the same time. There might be the space to store 9 Merlin ASW and 36 F35b, but not to operate them at the same time.

Of course there is a difference between theoretical studies and the real world, which is the point of the flight trials.

However, the idea that QE could operate 70 aircraft is a ludicrous fantasy.

It wasn't designed to operate 36 F35Bs and 4 halos the request for the design was for a carrier that can operated "at least " 36 F35Bs plus helo complement the design we got was larger.

The standard peace time load out is over 40 aircraft that has been put out by the RN
The capatain of QE said during an interview that the she could operate 70 aircraft at her max.

As for the Ford load out of 70 for them that is a standard peace time load out, the ford like the Nimitz before it is design to operate up to 100 aircraft at full war load out

[ArmChairCivvy]

Juliette, PA2, then the 2014 devolved design... lots of photo opportunities.

Navyrecognition offered this update:
"
Update 09/02/2018
The 2019-2025 military planning law mentions the following about the aircraft carrier:
Studies will be initiated to define how a new aircraft carrier could be implemented during this period. They will define as a priority the propulsion system of the vessel and the integration constraints of new technologies, particularly in terms of catapults. These studies will help decide on a possible anticipation of its construction and the format of this component to guarantee its permanence. (ed. note: only one aircraft carrier or two...)"

but I think I saw something about EMALS... having been ditched since?
If that means steam... it then means nuclear... which means expensive... which means that (even if there will be a fleeting period with two carriers) only one will be affordable

[Aethulwulf]

Posts like this should be banished down into the fantasy thread hell hole.

QE is designed to operate up to 36 F35b and 4 Merlin. Studies have shown that 36 F35b flying cyclic ops would not also allow deck space for 9 Merlin flying ASW ops at the same time. There might be the space to store 9 Merlin ASW and 36 F35b, but not to operate them at the same time.

Of course there is a difference between theoretical studies and the real world, which is the point of the flight trials.

However, the idea that QE could operate 70 aircraft is a ludicrous fantasy.

It wasn't designed to operate 36 F35Bs and 4 halos the request for the design was for a carrier that can operated "at least " 36 F35Bs plus helo complement the design we got was larger.

The standard peace time load out is over 40 aircraft that has been put out by the RN
The capatain of QE said during an interview that the she could operate 70 aircraft at her max.

As for the Ford load out of 70 for them that is a standard peace time load out, the ford like the Nimitz before it is design to operate up to 100 aircraft at full war load out

I think I remember trying to educate you a few years ago about how to correctly interpret what the QE Captain said on this subject. However, you threw your toys out of the pram and wouldn't listen.

So moving on to something you might understand...

...what about the people? Each aircraft needs 20+ crew and maintainers. With 70 aircraft, that comes to 1400 people, plus the 700 crew, requiring at least 2100 berths. But QE has just 1600 berths.

QE might well have the space to ferry 70 aircraft, but cannot operate 70 aircraft.

I do wonder why you cling to this fantasy. A 'standard loadout" of 24 F35b and 14 Merlin Mk2 plus some Mk4 is an impressive capability.

[imperialman]

Posts like this should be banished down into the fantasy thread hell hole.

QE is designed to operate up to 36 F35b and 4 Merlin. Studies have shown that 36 F35b flying cyclic ops would not also allow deck space for 9 Merlin flying ASW ops at the same time. There might be the space to store 9 Merlin ASW and 36 F35b, but not to operate them at the same time.

Of course there is a difference between theoretical studies and the real world, which is the point of the flight trials.

However, the idea that QE could operate 70 aircraft is a ludicrous fantasy.

It wasn't designed to operate 36 F35Bs and 4 halos the request for the design was for a carrier that can operated "at least " 36 F35Bs plus helo complement the design we got was larger.

The standard peace time load out is over 40 aircraft that has been put out by the RN
The capatain of QE said during an interview that the she could operate 70 aircraft at her max.

As for the Ford load out of 70 for them that is a standard peace time load out, the ford like the Nimitz before it is design to operate up to 100 aircraft at full war load out

I think I remember trying to educate you a few years ago about how to correctly interpret what the QE Captain said on this subject. However, you threw your toys out if the pram and wouldn't listen.

So moving on to something you might understand...

...what about the people? Each aircraft needs 20+ crew and maintainers. With 70 aircraft, that comes to 1400 people, plus the 700 crew, requiring at least 2100 berths. But QE has just 1600 berths.

QE might well have the space to ferry 70 aircraft, but cannot operate 70 aircraft.

I do wonder why you cling to this fantasy. A 'standard loadout" of 24 F35b and 14 Merlin Mk2 plus some Mk4 is an impressive capability.

I too remember that discussion, especially when it was pointed out that 70 aircraft would physically fit, but would block the flight deck up entirely resulting in aircraft being craned on and off rather than flown. IIRC, the design of the class was based around operating around 40 aircraft at a peak sortie rate of 70 per day? Perhaps that's where the confusion lies.

[dmereifield]

.

I do wonder why you cling to this fantasy. A 'standard loadout" of 24 F35b and 14 Merlin Mk2 plus some Mk4 is an impressive capability.

I think most of us would be delighted if that turns out to be the standard loadout on the duty carrier...