Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[ArmChairCivvy]

The ministry of defense said the grand total for the Cavour is 1,5 bln € plus 2,5 for the Jsf and its logistical support.

Well, the carriers doubled in cost. Then you add the planes and that cost is doubled again.

[Digger22]

I love the idea of a STOL aircraft on board, the ramp is Concave so as the aircraft goes up it ground clearance actually becomes greater between the front and main gear where the props are. BAe 146 for me though!

[Dahedd]

Any future stovl aircraft for the carriers face one major issue & that's fitting in the hanger. Only the Bronco has folding wings or at least has wings small enough to fit on the lifts. To develop or convert something else would cost a fortune.

Plus the Bronco gives a nice light attack option

[whitelancer]

What more could you want?

[ArmChairCivvy]

A few days ago I was reading about the developments that are occurring with the F-35 engine. I think it was in Aviation week. Might be available online.

Anyhoo, two aims of the programs. Firstly to improve fuel economy and second to improve thrust. [...]

Second phase would give about a 25% improvement. But not free

I fully expect some kind of funded improvement program will emerge that would be preferable to some of the ideas being floated here.
[...].

There is no doubt about either of those as they are merely steps towards the 6th gen prgrm, as per:
" USAF Picks Key Technologies For F-22 Follow-On

Lara Seligman | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

The U.S. Air Force is eyeing more powerful, fuel-efficient engines for extended range and increased stealth as key requirements for its next air superiority fighter."

But why not make all F-35 customers pay for these creeping improvement prgrms - and then reserve the next F-22 for USAF only!

[R686]

1. Remove the fantasy that it works as Ocean replacement and build a proper LPD / LPH solution designed so from the outset

agree. its the most logical solution

2. Add some form of CEC, I also understand that the technology behind "CEC" has been largely superceded but the concept is more valid than ever.

Agree,

3. Add Sampson, a higher Radar is more effective, putting Sampson and BMD capabilities on the carrier is the highest floating platform we are ever likely to have. Integrate this with the above 2.

not really sure why you want to put the BMD capability on the carriers, that's the escorts job

4. Ensure that we have the bees-knees electronic defense and attack capability. Really we need this capability for some of the flying assets too. The Americans have the EA-18Gs

that may still happen yet, USMC are looking for a pod to fit the F35 as a replacement to EA-6B Prowler

5. Uprate the self-defence capabilities I think maybe more Phalanx and possibly Sea-Ram, but I suspect we have the capability to design, build and deploy something even cleverer. This might be based on CAMM, LMM, Brimstone or a combination of the above.

more the merrier as long as it does not effect flight operations

6. Ensure that the shore facilities are more efficient, someone suggested a drive through replenishment. Excellent idea..... more ideas like that.

I'm all for a better way of doing things work smarter not harder

7. Keeping the Rosyth crane.

I always thought that was a no brainer, pity it cant be moved to its homeport

8. Moving the helicopters to another suitable and large vessel, like the MARS SSS thus freeing up the carrier's deck for maximum fighter operations.

always be a need for helicopter operations such as SAR/plane guard

9. Making the task force drone capable. With AEW and ASW being the focus. The objective being to provide 24+hr coverage per flight

that's a given proposition in future years

10. Maximising the capabilities of the F35B. It's weapons fit in UK guise isn't good enough. We actually have some good weapons to choose from but we are skimping on the development and procurement.

that's a funding and conops issue

11. Make sure that the carrier is suitably special forces capable. Do we have the right means to carry out extractions, rescues and insertions?

that's a given, but that's a role the proposed LHD would most likely cover

[ArmChairCivvy]

USMC are looking for a pod to fit the F35 as a replacement to EA-6B Prowler

Isn't that the NGJ, already in use on other planes? Or is that one too big for shoe-horning it into an already packed F-35?

[Opinion3]

@R686 The carrier's BMD capability would be detection, the CEC passes the detection to the best shooter, which you correctly state should be another asset

@ACC At one time the NGJ was a separate development for the F35s. Then they said the capabilities of all F35s was sufficient and anyway the Growlers were the answer. I think that is where we still are NGJ is progressing but for the Growlers rather than the Lightnings

[R686]

USMC are looking for a pod to fit the F35 as a replacement to EA-6B Prowler

Isn't that the NGJ, already in use on other planes? Or is that one too big for shoe-horning it into an already packed F-35?

As far as I can tell yes it's NGJ, RAAF are now collaborating as part of the Growler upgrade, I imagine it will work its way onto F35 but if that includes the B I have no idea and if USMC are also watching

[ArmChairCivvy]

I think that is where we still are NGJ is progressing but for the Growlers rather than the Lightnings

That was my reading, too. The very original version of the plan was that only B-52s would have the power to operate the jammer from distance... that was an expensive plan and was dropped,
"soliciting bids for a lead systems integrator (LSI) for the B-52H Stand-Off Jammer (SOJ) programme, formerly known as the EB-52 upgrade. The LSI's role will be to integrate two wing-tip jamming pods and associated processing and networking equipment onto a select number of B-52Hs, a platform with Boeing as the prime contractor.

The precise number of aircraft to be upgraded is still undecided, but Boeing officials have said about 16 aircraft will likely be required to accomplish the USAF's desired mission for the new electronic attack fleet. "

but not before a false restart in 2008:
"The overall concept envisaged the B-52 operating in the stand-off jamming role and performing a battle management function. The escort jamming role would be taken by the navy's Boeing EA-18G Growlers.

Meanwhile, stealthy aircraft, such as Lockheed's F-22 and F-35 fighters equipped with active electronically scanned array (AESA) radars, would perform the "stand-in jamming" role. " where the descoped version (CCJ) was taking care of jamming the OpFor's low frequency radars.
- in that round the idea was to wire all planes for the pods, but only have the pods in limited numbers

[Ron5]

A few days ago I was reading about the developments that are occurring with the F-35 engine. I think it was in Aviation week. Might be available online.

Anyhoo, two aims of the programs. Firstly to improve fuel economy and second to improve thrust. [...]

Second phase would give about a 25% improvement. But not free

I fully expect some kind of funded improvement program will emerge that would be preferable to some of the ideas being floated here.
[...].

There is no doubt about either of those as they are merely steps towards the 6th gen prgrm, as per:
" USAF Picks Key Technologies For F-22 Follow-On

Lara Seligman | Aerospace Daily & Defense Report

The U.S. Air Force is eyeing more powerful, fuel-efficient engines for extended range and increased stealth as key requirements for its next air superiority fighter."

But why not make all F-35 customers pay for these creeping improvement prgrms - and then reserve the next F-22 for USAF only!

Say what?

These are two different engines for two different aircraft, one of which is a just a twinkle in some designers eye.

As for the research programs that are leading to F-35 performance enhancements, they've been totally 100% funded by the USA and any development of the F-35 engine based on those programs, will once again be 100% totally funded by the USA. You're welcome.

[SKB]

"Goliath", the Babcock Rosyth crane is up for sale.
https://www.khl.com/news/giant-carrier- ... 10.article

[R686]

"Goliath", the Babcock Rosyth crane is up for sale.
https://www.khl.com/news/giant-carrier- ... 10.article

ill buy it Captain Cook Graving dock could do with it, just bring her down when you need some work done to them

[swoop]

Here's a question to think about while we wait for PoW's naming and float out. How would you IMPROVE the QE class in future upgrades and refits?
Keep it reasonable. No "third island" or "nuclear reactor" type answers allowed!

A swimming pool.

"Steel beach" calls will need to be provided for somehow.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The U.S. Air Force is eyeing more powerful, fuel-efficient engines for extended range and increased stealth as key requirements for its next air superiority fighter."

Say what?

There is such a thing as an engine and then there is engine technology; a primer in IT would talk about an object and its instances (I won't go as far as "inheritance" of key properties, without having to do the hard craft to create them again).

[shark bait]

Check your math. 13,000 lbs won't give 800 miles range.

13,000 lbs of internal fuel has demonstrated a combat radius of 450 nm, with weapons, a short take off, and a vertical landing with the F35B.

Remove the expensive take off and landing parts, and 13,000 lbs refueling will be close to 800 miles extra flying.

Source;
Defense Acquisition Management Information Retrieval
http://www.f-16.net/forum/download/file.php?id=25039

[shark bait]

Well, the carriers doubled in cost. Then you add the planes and that cost is doubled again.

Not double.
Originally going to cost £2bn each.
After 2008 programme slowed which increased cost to £3bn each.
Today ACA have stuck to £3bn figure.

The planes however, they're way off!

[ArmChairCivvy]

Not double.

Close enough:

Carrier Strike
Key facts
Main investment
decision (2007) [1]
pre-Strategic
Defence and
Security Review
(july 2010) [2]
post-Strategic
Defence and
Security Review
(october 2010) [3]
Estimated cost
of carriers
£3.65 billion [1]
£5.24 billion [2]
£6.24 billion [3]

Wasn't The Times saying that there is a bn in F-35 extras unbudgeted for?
2 x 3.65 = 6.24 +1 ... then FX the budget figures which of course will need to be done for the flow (time profile; not as a lump sum)

[Phil R]

BAe 146 for me though!

The 146 is quite under powered and is regularly described as:
Feels like 1 engine.
Actually has 4 engines.
Probably needs 6 engines.

Probably not the best choice for take offs from the carriers

Phil R

[PhillyJ]

Totally off topic I know but I was only just this moment heading down the A3 in the direction of Portsmouth when much to my surprise I was overflown at very low level by an MI 24 Hind in close formation with an MI 8 Hip! Spetznaz making a pre-emptive strike to take out QE ?

There were a couple of these at Biggin Hill Airshow Saturday, but not sure they were in desert camo. I've seen pics of one that was painted as if it was the Alien from the films!

[SKB]

Best viewed fullscreen in 1080p

[Timmymagic]

There were a couple of these at Biggin Hill Airshow Saturday, but not sure they were in desert camo. I've seen pics of one that was painted as if it was the Alien from the films!

Could be one of the NATO nations that still flys them. But there was a couple of Mi-8's and 17's based in the south doing training for the Afghans Air Force.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Didn't Iraq buy a couple of dozen Hinds from the Czechs - before they started their counteroffensive against Daesh?
- so could be more than just the Afghan AF/ army that are being trained

Err, I think some pilots and technicians came on the deal, but surely by now they want to go home

[Gabriele]

Although the QEC role is usually represented on an either/or basis of carrier strike or LPH, Rear Admiral Blount was at pains to emphasise that this was a sliding scale of capability. “There is nothing to stop you doing littoral manoeuvre with a few jets on board or carrier strike with support helicopters on board”. This raises the interesting possibility of the development of a multirole configuration, which Rear Adm Blount avoided describing as hybrid because of the term’s specific meaning in warfare.

While he was not prepared to be drawn on exact aircraft numbers, Rear Adm Blount suggested that 6-8 F-35Bs was the minimum number that could be embarked, and at that end of the scale they would be more for use “in a force protection role in an uncertain environment” rather than for the strike role. He said “What we have bought is 65,000 tons of military opportunity, which can be operated in a bespoke manner. Whether a carrier would be deployed operationally in a half-and-half configuration would be entirely dependent on the situation.”

The routine operating model for the QEC is likely to work on a six-year cycle, with one platform in carrier strike configuration at very-high readiness (VHR) and the other in LPH configuration at high readiness (HR), which in practice translates to 20 days notice to deploy. However, during these periods of HR the LPH will deploy as part of the UK’s Amphibious Task Group (ATG) for training, exercises, and in support of the UK Defence Engagement policy.

The ATG, part of the UK Joint Expeditionary Force-Maritime (JEFM), will consist of the LPH; a Landing Platform Dock (LPD), which has extensive C2 facilities, as well as organic landing craft; and two Landing Ship Dock (Auxiliary) (LSD[A]) Royal Fleet Auxiliary-manned vessels, also with organic landing craft. This force will be able to carry the entire 1,800-strong Lead Cdo Gp (LCG) and will be capable of launching in a single wave one company by air from the LPH and one by surface craft in Viking protected mobility vehicles. This could then be followed by a second heliborne and subsequent surface waves.

Jane's also reports that HMS Queen Elizabeth should achieve an interim LPH capability next year, centered on a single company of Marines / Special Purpose Task Group, and will carry such a force to the US for exercise while heading there for F-35 trials in the autumn.

[Jake1992]

Although the QEC role is usually represented on an either/or basis of carrier strike or LPH, Rear Admiral Blount was at pains to emphasise that this was a sliding scale of capability. “There is nothing to stop you doing littoral manoeuvre with a few jets on board or carrier strike with support helicopters on board”. This raises the interesting possibility of the development of a multirole configuration, which Rear Adm Blount avoided describing as hybrid because of the term’s specific meaning in warfare.

While he was not prepared to be drawn on exact aircraft numbers, Rear Adm Blount suggested that 6-8 F-35Bs was the minimum number that could be embarked, and at that end of the scale they would be more for use “in a force protection role in an uncertain environment” rather than for the strike role. He said “What we have bought is 65,000 tons of military opportunity, which can be operated in a bespoke manner. Whether a carrier would be deployed operationally in a half-and-half configuration would be entirely dependent on the situation.”

The routine operating model for the QEC is likely to work on a six-year cycle, with one platform in carrier strike configuration at very-high readiness (VHR) and the other in LPH configuration at high readiness (HR), which in practice translates to 20 days notice to deploy. However, during these periods of HR the LPH will deploy as part of the UK’s Amphibious Task Group (ATG) for training, exercises, and in support of the UK Defence Engagement policy.

The ATG, part of the UK Joint Expeditionary Force-Maritime (JEFM), will consist of the LPH; a Landing Platform Dock (LPD), which has extensive C2 facilities, as well as organic landing craft; and two Landing Ship Dock (Auxiliary) (LSD[A]) Royal Fleet Auxiliary-manned vessels, also with organic landing craft. This force will be able to carry the entire 1,800-strong Lead Cdo Gp (LCG) and will be capable of launching in a single wave one company by air from the LPH and one by surface craft in Viking protected mobility vehicles. This could then be followed by a second heliborne and subsequent surface waves.

Jane's also reports that HMS Queen Elizabeth should achieve an interim LPH capability next year, centered on a single company of Marines / Special Purpose Task Group, and will carry such a force to the US for exercise while heading there for F-35 trials in the autumn.

I do hope that the QEs being used in the LPH role will only be for a stop gap period untill the Albions are replaced, Iv heard the RN are hoping the same but are preparing for the worst case outcome.

Surely it makes sence when the time comes to replace the Albions with a pair of LHDs, to allow a flat top closer with out risking a QE