Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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easydiver
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by easydiver »

Does anyone know what's happening with flyco? It's been covered in scaffolding since float out, and at that time it was reckoned to have temporary glazing. Could it be that it's easier to install the ATC equipment through the window openings, so they leave them unglazed as long as possible?

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

It would seem a lot easier to put Flyco's gear in through the big observation windows, then put in the glazing afterwards.

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Gabriele
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Gabriele »

A piece by the Telegraph, with an interesting video tour. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/news ... um=twitter
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

Nice find Gabriele , it does appear to the schematics that the captain has a bit of exercise getting between his quarters and the bridge easily more than any other R.N ship

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hovematlot
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by hovematlot »

seaspear wrote:Nice find Gabriele , it does appear to the schematics that the captain has a bit of exercise getting between his quarters and the bridge easily more than any other R.N ship
It's actually a very similar set up to previous Royal Navy aircraft carriers. He has his main cabin aft as indicated on the drawing. That will be huge, more for use in harbour. Normally next to the admirals cabin. They'll have access to the quarter deck for cocktail parties etc!

The Captains sea cabin is located in the forward Island along with the Navigating Officers. He will spend most of his time working/sleeping out here at sea and can be on the bridge in seconds if required.

I'm not sure about the QEC, but previous RN carriers had a lift from the Captains sea cabin on 02 deck down to the operations room on 5 deck. He could quickly transfer 7 decks in seconds depending if he was needed for a navigation or an operational situation.

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CarrierFan2006
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by CarrierFan2006 »

seaspear wrote:The 3 million cubic metres of dredging where is it being placed ?
I will see if I can find out. I am now based in the Pompey area so have certain avenues open to me! Given where it's coming from, the heavy metals point someone made is valid. Spoil is normally simply shipped away and dumped in the deep sea. We used to get dredged munitions all the time in Southampton, so I can imagine that Portsmouth Harbour will be just the same...

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by desertswo »

easydiver wrote:Does anyone know what's happening with flyco? It's been covered in scaffolding since float out, and at that time it was reckoned to have temporary glazing. Could it be that it's easier to install the ATC equipment through the window openings, so they leave them unglazed as long as possible?
Stipulating up front that our two navies are different, in my experience, there is no "real" ATC, as I understand the term, equipment, located in FLYCO (or "PRIFLY" as we refer to it). ATC is generally an adjunct to the Operations Room, where it is afforded some protection from battle damage. I'm sure there will be consoles and radio repeaters located in FLYCO that will enable the Air Officer and his assistants to mind the situation on the flight deck as well as airborne, at low altitude, and within visual distance of the ship.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

So you are saying the Flyco is more about movements on the carriers deck, launches, refuelling, arming and landing. So the Air Traffic is done by the boys sitting at the radar consoles there must be a high degree of co ordination between the Flyco and the Radar Operators hence the equipment.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by cpu121 »

Possible lift for POW today? Saw the three crane hooks linked to what I think might have been a yellow lifting beam. They were hanging from the middle of the crane, which was positioned forward of the island (another piece of the ramp possibly?)

Not sure if that is a routine arrangement for the crane or not?
CarrierFan2006 wrote:
seaspear wrote:The 3 million cubic metres of dredging where is it being placed ?
I will see if I can find out. I am now based in the Pompey area so have certain avenues open to me! Given where it's coming from, the heavy metals point someone made is valid. Spoil is normally simply shipped away and dumped in the deep sea. We used to get dredged munitions all the time in Southampton, so I can imagine that Portsmouth Harbour will be just the same...
The Marine Management Organisation don't appear to have received a Marine Licence Application yet for the dredging. However their South Inshore and South Offshore Marine Plan Areas: South Plans Analytical Report (SPAR) from 2013 anticipates the Nab Tower disposal site being used.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/s ... ftspar.pdf
bobp wrote:So you are saying the Flyco is more about movements on the carriers deck, launches, refuelling, arming and landing. So the Air Traffic is done by the boys sitting at the radar consoles there must be a high degree of co ordination between the Flyco and the Radar Operators hence the equipment.
Air Traffic Control generally isn't a single system. Think of a major airfield on land.

At the top of the ATC tower, you have the Visual Control Room (VCR), which offers an excellent view of movements on the airfield, in the circuit and the local area. Controllers there give the clearances for aircraft to land, take-off, taxi and also for other vehicles to move around the airfield. As well as visually observing aircraft, they may make use of systems to help coordinate movements on the ground, control airfield lightning and initiating crash alarms. They very rarely use radar but may have slave displays in addition to flight strips for awareness of anticipated arrivals/departures. At a large airfield, they have separate Tower and Ground radio channels to coordinate movements.

Then at the base of the ATC tower you usually find the Approach/Radar room. The controllers here take over from their VCR colleagues shortly after take-off and hand-over to the VCR shortly before landing. They use radar to safely sequence arriving/departing aircraft (from perhaps as far out as 100 miles) and instruct them to orbit it holds if necessary. They will also be responsible for precision approaches using radar - i.e. talking a pilot down the approach to a point where he/she sees the runway or has to go around. Particularly important if dealing with poor weather, fatigued pilots and/or system failures onboard the aircraft.

FLYCO would mainly perform the first role, including arranging the aircraft on the deck/in the hanger. It may also have a key role in planning taskings like Helicopter Delivery Service around the fleet, organising the take off and landing cycles and generally advising the Captain on Air matters. The Approach/Radar control would likely be based in the Operations Room. It is almost certain to be a separate station from the main Air Warfare/Fighter Controller stations I would think- if for no other reason, you still need ATC for returning aircraft, the ASW screen and HDS in the vicinity of the fleet while an air battle ranges a couple of hundred miles ahead of the fleet. In the same way that the RAF's Air Control Centres and E-3 Sentry battlespace controllers do not displace the local ATC roles at RAF airfields.

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cockneyjock1974
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by cockneyjock1974 »

I've given her the once over this morning, it something has been lifted, then it's not overtly obvious. It certainly looks like the ski ramp is still incomplete.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by desertswo »

cpu121 wrote:
bobp wrote:So you are saying the Flyco is more about movements on the carriers deck, launches, refuelling, arming and landing. So the Air Traffic is done by the boys sitting at the radar consoles there must be a high degree of co ordination between the Flyco and the Radar Operators hence the equipment.
Air Traffic Control generally isn't a single system. Think of a major airfield on land.

At the top of the ATC tower, you have the Visual Control Room (VCR), which offers an excellent view of movements on the airfield, in the circuit and the local area. Controllers there give the clearances for aircraft to land, take-off, taxi and also for other vehicles to move around the airfield. As well as visually observing aircraft, they may make use of systems to help coordinate movements on the ground, control airfield lightning and initiating crash alarms. They very rarely use radar but may have slave displays in addition to flight strips for awareness of anticipated arrivals/departures. At a large airfield, they have separate Tower and Ground radio channels to coordinate movements.

Then at the base of the ATC tower you usually find the Approach/Radar room. The controllers here take over from their VCR colleagues shortly after take-off and hand-over to the VCR shortly before landing. They use radar to safely sequence arriving/departing aircraft (from perhaps as far out as 100 miles) and instruct them to orbit it holds if necessary. They will also be responsible for precision approaches using radar - i.e. talking a pilot down the approach to a point where he/she sees the runway or has to go around. Particularly important if dealing with poor weather, fatigued pilots and/or system failures onboard the aircraft.

FLYCO would mainly perform the first role, including arranging the aircraft on the deck/in the hanger. It may also have a key role in planning taskings like Helicopter Delivery Service around the fleet, organising the take off and landing cycles and generally advising the Captain on Air matters. The Approach/Radar control would likely be based in the Operations Room. It is almost certain to be a separate station from the main Air Warfare/Fighter Controller stations I would think- if for no other reason, you still need ATC for returning aircraft, the ASW screen and HDS in the vicinity of the fleet while an air battle ranges a couple of hundred miles ahead of the fleet. In the same way that the RAF's Air Control Centres and E-3 Sentry battlespace controllers do not displace the local ATC roles at RAF airfields.
You've pretty much summed the situation up correctly. ATC and AAWC may use a lot of the same language but the roles are completely different. As a Tactical Action Officer (TAO), I was an AAWC, but you wouldn't want me doing ATC at Heathrow. They will be in separate spaces within the Operations Room complex, and guarding separate comm nets.

There may be differences between navies, but I've noticed in old videos of when you guys were still operating CATOBAR carriers, that roles and jargon were pretty much identical. In the USN, the Air Departments and Operations Departments are totally separate. The Air Department owns launch and recovery, flight and hangar deck routine to include arming and refueling, and low altitude VCR. The Operations Department CoC goes OPSO>ASUWOPSO/ASWOPSO/AAWOPSO>AAWC or STRKWC, etc., and OPSO>Air Operations Officer (AIROPSO)>ATC. The AAWCs and ATCs answer ultimately to the OPSO with regard to safety of flight, etc., but for very different purposes.

The Air Officer meanwhile sits up in FLYCO, master of all he surveilles; which is a key point in that pretty much, if he or one of his people cannot see it, it is not their responsibility. As you alluded, he is pretty much an airport manager. He's a Commander, usually in zone for selection to Captain, and he has others who do the fine line stuff: LSOs land the aircraft; Cat and Arresting Gear Officer has responsibility for that gear; the "Shooter" sends the airplane off the pointy end; the Handler supervises the moves on deck for the Flight Deck Officer who plans and keeps track of the moves, etc.

So when does the Air Officer and his LSOs assume responsibility for safety of flight? Simple; when AIROPS and his ATCs hand it off to them. The ATC will say something like, "Hornet Two One Four check in with LSO Button 13." The pilot will switch to the final approach freq, and hear something like, "Hornet Two One Four call the ball," to which, assuming the pilot is on the correct glide slope and can see the Fresnel Lens with the "meatball" appearing green, will respond with that bit of info as well as his needles info regarding distance to the two wire in miles: "Hornet ball one point five," and the LSO will respond "Roger ball," and finish the job of walking him in. It's all very matter of fact.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

Desertswo are amphibious ships set out and operated the same way

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

Desertswo
Thank you for your clear explanation of how it all works in practice. Clearly ship operations are more complex than on say an airfield, especially as the amount of real estate is limited. I liked especially your description of the jargon between pilot and the various control officers to illustrate how the team functions.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Welcome back Mike good to hear from you :D

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

1SL Admiral Sir George Zambellas speaking at Chatham House today:
Mark my words. When the first of our new carriers, HMS Queen Elizabeth, deploys on her first mission in a few years, with fifth generation fighters and drones embarked, she will scotch at a stroke any talk of Britain’s retreat from the world.
Read More: https://www.gov.uk/government/speeches/ ... um=twitter

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Jdam »

Some talk of us flying drones from out carriers, any idea what kind they are thinking about?

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Bring Deeps »

Interesting comment from Admiral Zambellas.

I thought that to date the only drones operated from carriers needed catapults to launch and arrestor wires to land. Is he just speculating or does he know something we don't?

The internet suggests that the takeoff and landing distance required for the drones currently operated by the UK is approx. 2,000 ft.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

Maybe the RN will be using drones bought from 'Argos' ?!
http://www.argos.co.uk/features/drones.html#basicdrones

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Bring Deeps »

That must be it.

Now everyone can have a blue water navy on the cheap.

That really would be damned un-English after we have spent £6billion on the real thing.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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seaspear wrote:Desertswo are amphibious ships set out and operated the same way
Ours certainly are.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

RN sponsored a study for vertical take-off drones (to deliver unconventional payloads; whatever those might be?), but no connection has been made to the one actually in existence:

http://www.darkreading.com/risk-managem ... _number=10
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by desertswo »

bobp wrote:Desertswo
Thank you for your clear explanation of how it all works in practice. Clearly ship operations are more complex than on say an airfield, especially as the amount of real estate is limited. I liked especially your description of the jargon between pilot and the various control officers to illustrate how the team functions.
Glad to help. You like jargon, hopefully without offending the OT Hitler Youth, the US/UK and all of our allies to include NATO, the "Five Eyes," South Korea, Japan and Singapore, use the ATP-1(Series) tactical maneuvering and communications publication. In other words, we are all singing from the same sheet of music. Some of the stuff becomes committed to memory just because it is used so often, such as this one from my CV days. For these examples, Constellation's daily changing three letter call sign will be Echo Three November and USS David R. Ray (DD 971) will be Bravo Four Tango:

Constellation: "Bravo Four Tango, this is Echo Three November, immediate execute Station Starboard one seven tack one answer, I say again Station Starboard One Seven tack one answer, standby . . . Execute, over!"

David R . Ray: "Echo Three November this is Bravo Four Tango, Station Starboard one seven tack one answer. Roger, out."

I wrote it all out in regular English so that you could "hear" what was said, but written out it in ATP-1 shorthand it would look like this: "B4T DE E3N IX STA STBD 17-1 ANS, ISA STA STBD 17-1 ANS, STBY X, AR.", and so on. And what was happening? Constellation just ordered David R. Ray to take station 170 relative from Constellation at one and one-half miles distance, and get there now, now, now. For ships of the Kitty Hawk-class that is the ultimate night time destroyer plane guard station. Why? Because 170 lines the destroyer up with the carrier's angle deck enabling pilots on final to use the DD's running lights to assist in lining up "the ball," especially on moonless nights.

We don't even use a plane guard DD during daylight; opting instead for a helo flying what's known as a "Starboard Delta" pattern about a mile off the CV(N)'s starboard side; making a straight run up the carrier's starboard side before making a lazy starboard turn to head aft and start the process, which describes a capital letter "D" hence the name, all over again.

There are others one likes to hear, like: "ALL UNITS E3N DE E3N, EX3-4 BT BZ BT AD-14-1 BT B4T AR" which would read, "All units in Echo Three November this is Echo Three November, the exercise is completed BREAK well done BREAK splice the main brace BREAK Bravo Four Tango, over"

"Break" is used in lieu of periods, ends of paragraphs, etc. That message was sent to all of the ships in company with Constellation, and the CO or CVSG commander might wait for those ships to "roger" for receipt of the message, or in this case, call out a specific ship as a form of a spot check rather than listening to the laundry list of calls signs to report in. If it only happens to your ship occasionally, that's routine. However, if one finds one's ship frequently on the receiving end of such call outs, it may well be that the guy in charge is not impressed by your ship's demonstrated tactical/operational acumen. As we are wont to say here in the States, he believes you "ride the short bus to school."

One thing you REALLY don't want to be on the receiving end of is: "Bravo Four Tango, this is Echo Three November, STATION, OUT!" That means your station keeping ability is shit, and the big guy has not only noticed, but has given a very pointed piece of direction to collect all of one's fecal matter in the same piece of hosiery . . . or else.

OK, I can definitely feel the OT mavens chomping at the bit to send me to bed without supper, so I will return this station to Legolandia. Let me know if I can fill in any other blanks.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by desertswo »

cockneyjock1974 wrote:Welcome back Mike good to hear from you :D
Never left Jamie. My laptop has been Tango Uniform.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by seaspear »

Much appreciated Desertswo , didn't think you were off campaigning for Hilary

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

Thanks Desetswo definitely not Oscar Tango, the communications between ships is just as important as communications between the ships crew members. Glad to see your laptop is fully functioning.

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