Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[WhiteWhale]

6 months for a repaint?

What are they giving a metallic tiger striping?

[serge750]

Blimey, didn't realise she would go back in the dock for a respray, but, more chances of a photo op with the iconic Forth bridge.

[cockneyjock1974]

I'm sceptical too lads but having met the guy, he doesn't seem the type to talk bowlacks.

[SKB]

That's me out for going to see her arrive in Pompy then... definitely won't have the money as i'll be paying for my next car around that time....

Portsmouth Harbour has a live webcam - of sorts - positioned from the mizzen mast of HMS Warrior. The camera angle changes every few seconds, but you'd be able to see QE come in and berth from it. Plus it might be on the telly anyway. Link:

http://www.hmswarrior.org/webcam

oh and another: http://www.camsecure.co.uk/portsmouth_h ... ebcam.html

[serge750]

Does seem logical just in case they have any other fine tuning to do after the 1st set of seatrials, it's like on a new motorcycle they go in for a 1st service after 600 miles just in case there are any minor issues that present themselves...will be good for you CJ to get some more photo's for your album before she goes south.

[Jdam]

Those pictures were fantastic.

As for the QE returning to dry dock, I'm more shocked that the POW will be hitting the water so soon if that's the case

[SKB]

Who gets to name PoW? Surely Prince Charles or Camilla ?

[hovematlot]

Great updates. Exciting times.

No smoke yet from her engines?

This is a Royal Navy aircraft carrier, not some piece of junk from the Russian Navy..

[hovematlot]

I'm sceptical too lads but having met the guy, he doesn't seem the type to talk bowlacks.

That's quite different from the 5 plus 1 plus 5 programme detailed by HMS Queen Elizabeth's 1st Lieutenant. Time will tell I guess...

[djkeos]

Great updates. Exciting times.

No smoke yet from her engines?

This is a Royal Navy aircraft carrier, not some piece of junk from the Russian Navy..

Wasn't suggesting black smoke...
White smoke will do.
Anyway, some smoke was visible on one of the posted pics.

[Biggles]

Not sure it was smoke..more likely heat haze from the diesel generators.

[S M H]

Not sure it was smoke..more likely heat haze from the diesel generators.

Queen Elizabeth with modern lean burn fuel injection diesels should not show smoke. The carriers displaying smoke will be left to others. As her fuel is common to the Trent Gas Turbine which require higher grade of fuel oil. She wont be using the heaver fuel oils used by the merchant marine ships that has to be heated and treated to burn in there diesels. That often causes them to omits smoke when under load.

[Jake1992]

So I see the RAF are pushing for the F35 order to be split between the A and B, how will this effect carrier operations and capabilities ?

[R686]

So I see the RAF are pushing for the F35 order to be split between the A and B, how will this effect carrier operations and capabilities ?

0%

Still only going to be 4 Squadron worth between RN/RAF

[Biggles]

But if the money allocated to the 138 F35B programme is used for and F35A purchase then it will most certainly affect the Carrier Strike programme.

It is yet another ploy by the RAF to limit embarked FW capability.

[R686]

But if the money allocated to the 138 F35B programme is used for and F35A purchase then it will most certainly affect the Carrier Strike programme.

It is yet another ploy by the RAF to limit embarked FW capability.

No, you don't need 138 aircraft to fill out 2x CBG, a minimum of 72 aircraft are needed for max strike operation's if 2x carrier are operating at same time which is highly unlikely to happen, and that's would be another state against state action (WW III), a Falklands 2.0 senerio as a sole action you still won't have the capacity to fill out the carriers in a strike role as both carriers will most likely need room for helicopters for the landing force.

No Ocean soon remember

[cpu121]

Who will be in command of QE during her sea trials - will it a contractor trials master or Captain Kyd?

[Jake1992]

To have both a full rate there will need to be more than 72 due to the fact some would be in maintenance, that is also only taking in to account that it's a max of 36 per carrier which seems more like the max would be 42 to 48 odd.

Would splitting the order between A and B increase the cost due to a reduction in the economy of scale ?

[R686]

To have both a full rate there will need to be more than 72 due to the fact some would be in maintenance, that is also only taking in to account that it's a max of 36 per carrier which seems more like the max would be 42 to 48 odd.

Would splitting the order between A and B increase the cost due to a reduction in the economy of scale ?

No, 36x fast jets was the optimum number declared by the RN to provide all aspects of long range strike in a high intensity environment, fast jets are not the only aircraft on board to provide the means to accomplish this.

out of the 36 fast jets on board 3-6 aircraft will be down for maintenance at any one time which would leave enough aircraft avalible for a long range strike group of 6 aircraft you would need another 16 aircraft to provide 24/7 CAP as a minimum, the rest will be for attrition you have to expect loses.

Ecoy of scale will work both ways what you lose in one you pick up in the other

[donald_of_tokyo]

It will all depend on the requirement. If 2 CV strike air wing, with 36 F35B each, are required to deploy at the same time or not. Note, F35B is much much more capable than SeaHarrier (which was limited compared to F16/18, same generation, but STOVL was critically important for RN, good). And also much more expensive....

F35B is 30% expensive than A, lift-fan is man-power intensive to support, so there shall be clear merit of mixed buy. But also drawbacks exist, that how common the logistics and training scheme (especially maintenance team) is. I do not know this. Actually, I think no one knows it yet. F35A and B both are not in full production nor full operation. Its maintenance scheme is just standing up.

If there will be 138 F35 in total?, and if yes, when? Also, how many Typhoons will be left at that time? Now UK has ~140 Typhoon, ~80 Tornado, ~8 F35Bs. I also think F35B is more expensive than Tornado, is it going to be 1:1 replaced? "All F35 fleet" in 2040-50 is not "impossible", depending on the echonomy then. In such case, mixed buy shall come into consideration?

But, we do not need to think about it now, it is too future. For a few years, just keep buying F35B (to meet 60 minimum) is the only way to go. We do not know the "real maintenance load" of both F35A and B. We just need to wait, I think.

[R686]

agree priority should be getting the carrier groups up to speed as ASAP. with Tornado bowing out from 2019 any new arrivals of JSF will just be keeping up numbers that the UK have now. when the JFH was sold of it was 72 aircraft strong.

138 JSF will be a 1-1 replacement of JFH and partial Tornado replacement, so if you look at it right its a RN win for RAF loss. now just to get it all back under FAA control will be the master stroke

[MRCA]

Don't know where your getting your tornado numbers from haven't had 80 tornados for years, numbers currently around 40. With pretty much the entire FE@R in Cyprus. You've got a total of 9 sqns budgeted for in the form of 7 typhoon and 2 f35. If f35 goes up typhoon goes down. Is the defence budget awash with billion to start replacing typhoon anytime soon I think there are plenty other priorities before that. We can look again in the 2030s at the split when we see how the jet is behaving.

F35 is a RAF a/c, that will not be changing, it will be deployed jointly to where defence priority is.

[Biggles]

Almost certainly Capt Kyd but under contract to BAe (nominal sum). He is the only one with big ship experience. There may well be a MoD trials master on board too. This situation has happened before.

[ArmChairCivvy]

around 40. With pretty much the entire FE@R in Cyprus

They did make it to the recent ACE17; how refreshing with some snow, after decades of sand. Not clear (to me) how many were there.

That FE@R number is only under the number of purchased advanced helmet systems by 1 or 2, so that is the operational strength... I guess some recce can reasonably be done without such add-ons (naturally carrying the pods that , so far, have been deemed too big to be practical on a Typhoon; there's another bridge to cross as the bizjet-based capability for wide-area surveillance is fine - and also under threat - but only in fairly permissive environment).

[Gabriele]

No, 36x fast jets was the optimum number declared by the RN to provide all aspects of long range strike in a high intensity environment, fast jets are not the only aircraft on board to provide the means to accomplish this.

out of the 36 fast jets on board 3-6 aircraft will be down for maintenance at any one time which would leave enough aircraft avalible for a long range strike group of 6 aircraft you would need another 16 aircraft to provide 24/7 CAP as a minimum, the rest will be for attrition you have to expect loses.

You are focusing on the wrong data. The number of airframes is actually the less relevant factor in here. Try and look at squadrons instead.

The UK now has 5 Typhoon Sqns, 3 Tornado GR4 Sqns and 1 F-35B Sqn in build up, and already struggles with manpower.

In 2019 Tornado GR4 bows out, but the RAF will, beginning next year, build up 2 or 3 additional Typhoon Sqns. The number of Sqns is more or less unchanged.

Already strained manpower margins meanwhile have to accomodate the P-8 fleet too, the retention of 14 C-130 and the doubling of the Reaper line with the transition to Protector and an expanded Shadow R1 fleet, plus extra crew for Sentry. And we know (at least we should know) the drones carry no pilot but actually require a hell of a lot of people back in the base, including multiple crews taking 4 hours turns to cover missions lasting well north of 12 hours, and with Protector north of 24. So, there are a lot of demands to be met.

In the future, the RAF plans a number of FCAS too. Those will require men too.

The plan right now is for 4 F-35 squadrons. Period. End. And even this plan, if you do the math, is likely to require the demise of two of the "additional Typhoon sqns".

5 Typhoon + 3 Tornado + 1 F-35B (2017)

to

7/8 Typhoon + 1 F-35B (2020) + 1 F-35B in build up

to

7/8 Typhoon + 2 F-35B in 2023

to (possibly)

5/6 Typhoon + 4 F-35 sqn in late 2020s. With FCAS coming in.


Now. Someone please tell me who is going to man the F-35A, or what consistence the two fleets will have. 2 squadrons each? 3 - 1? All ridiculous propositions. It'll be impossible to fill up a single carrier, and neither of the two fleets will have a sustainable critical mass.

Please, please, please, someone explain how it could ever work, since there is no extra manpower in sight anywhere.