Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[dmereifield]

70, wow that's impressive. But why is he announcing it now after all the talk of 40-50 being max? Is he trying to shame the MoD/Treasury into coughing up more dough/increasing the purchase rate?

[Timmymagic]

70, wow that's impressive. But why is he announcing it now after all the talk of 40-50 being max? Is he trying to shame the MoD/Treasury into coughing up more dough/increasing the purchase rate?

I'm guessing that would be 70 F-35 with no Merlin or other assets onboard. It couldn't be operated efficiently with that number though.

Besides the MoD or Government don't do shame...

The most interesting bit is the thoughts around UAV's. I think that is where the QE Class size is really going to come into it's own. We've built a ship that isn't going to be too small in 10 years time.

[bobp]

In the wired article there is a nice picture inside the Flyco I haven't seen before.

[RetroSicotte]

To be honest, I doubt the 70 F-35B claim. The Hanger can handle what, 24? 27 as a push? I've stood in that hanger, I can get a brief thought on its size. It's enormous, but planes are also big.

I've seen an image before that put the max F-35B amount at about 55+ if they went all out on F-35Bs for the carrier. The 70 number likely comes from Wired mistaking Kyd saying 70 aircraft when replying to them, rather than specifically 70 F-35Bs.

So once you consider things like 36 F-35B, 10 Merlins, UAVs like Scan Eagle size, smaller unmanned helos...you can start to see where the 70 number might come in. It's likely a complete total. Max operational F-35Bs likely lies in the 50 range.

[dmereifield]

To be honest, I doubt the 70 F-35B claim. The Hanger can handle what, 24? 27 as a push? I've stood in that hanger, I can get a brief thought on its size. It's enormous, but planes are also big.

I've seen an image before that put the max F-35B amount at about 55+ if they went all out on F-35Bs for the carrier. The 70 number likely comes from Wired mistaking Kyd saying 70 aircraft when replying to them, rather than specifically 70 F-35Bs.

So once you consider things like 36 F-35B, 10 Merlins, UAVs like Scan Eagle size, smaller unmanned helos...you can start to see where the 70 number might come in. It's likely a complete total. Max operational F-35Bs likely lies in the 50 range.

Still sounds impressive, to me

[ArmChairCivvy]

The fuller the hangar gets, the more time consuming the handling within it will be (none of the OR done on that has been published)
- therefore having both lifts capable of two a/c is a great idea for improving the throughput (arming and fuelling itself does not require leaving the deck, but (man) maintenance hours per flight hour are still a taxing consideration in sortie generation over a prolonged period)

[Thorvicson]

70, wow that's impressive. But why is he announcing it now after all the talk of 40-50 being max? Is he trying to shame the MoD/Treasury into coughing up more dough/increasing the purchase rate?

Yes I was surprised by that but he did say carry as opposed to operate which could imply if used in the ferry role !.

The 40-50 mark is probably what they can operate in a surge conditions and maintain a regular air operations.

As to the Ordering I get the feeling that will come in time , the focus at resent is getting the initial capability by 2020 with the ships and the first squadron of F-35s, then 2020-25 its bringing Carrier Strike up to strength. During that period or after I expect they will look to enhance the Airgroup by increasing assigned F-35s and introducing V-22 if it proves to be a game changer for USMC F-35 operations in terms of COD and Tanker roles.

Speaking of the USMC I notice we have had live firings of the ASRAAM and Paveway IV from USMC F-35B, I know these are instrumented aircraft for the trials but with the announced deployment of USMC air element on the QEC's will they be using their own Armaments or will they be using British stores for ease of use ?

[PhillyJ]

Princess Anne in Pompey to officially name the new Jetty today.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-39326028

[Zealot]

They can carry 72 aircraft in total. Sounds like it can carry a maximum of 44 F-35s, 20 Helicopters and 8 UAVs depending on their size.

[Jake1992]

From what Iv read it's 60 aircraft but if that's true that 72 is its optimum amount for max sortie generation, then that is impressive. I believe the Nimitz carriers max for best sortie generation is 80-90 aircraft, so for us to be able to put out 72 on a carrier that's 30,000t lighter 50m shorter and 5m narrower that's some going

[RetroSicotte]

Bear in mind that the exact numbers are enormously more complex for what can operate at what speed. How many fuel stations, ammo elevators, personnel. That affects tonnage too, the Nimitz/Ford are much heavier, but they also need a lot of space for a LOT more crew too.

It's hard to make a direct comparison. But I've seen an interview (at work so no link to it right now) that claimed 32 strikes per day per 12 F-35Bs on the QE. That makes the 110 a day with 36 seem viable, mathematically. With a prospective 50+ F-35B, that could approach the 200 number we've seen bandied about now and again.

Of course, "sorties" is a vague term. How long is each one? How far? With what payloads?

The internet most often compares numbers it doesn't understand. I don't understand them either for it. So all we can do is look at the broad strokes.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I've seen an interview (at work so no link to it right now) that claimed 32 strikes per day per 12 F-35Bs on the QE. That makes the 110 a day with 36 seem viable, mathematically

Saw that one too. Note the missing 4 sorties. Add a dozen (a/c) and the 4+4 becomes less than 8 through the portfolio effect on (technical) risk.
- "you" are still not in each others way
- add the third dozen and that last mentioned factor will start to weigh in heavily

It is simple Reaganomics (if anyone here still remembers the "curve"): at first, per a/c, it goes up, then after some optimum, starts to decline
- that is per a/c, the total still goes up
- shimmples?


-

[Thorvicson]

Any sign of the sheeting and Scaffolding coming down on HMS Queen Elizabeth ?

Assuming they will have to get her shipshape in the near future for Sea Trials and if the flight deck is still mostly covered then does it imply that delays may be partially down to the flight deck painting and the Thermal paint application ?

[seaspear]

Does anyone have information on how long the process of the Thermion application has taken ?

[NavyLookout]

SRN have put together this infographic which looks at the schedule for delivery of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers and their embarked aircraft. Prepared using MoD statements and public domain information, some dates are estimates and programs are likely to be subject to change.

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/timelin ... er-strike/

[shark bait]

massive challenge ahead

[ArmChairCivvy]

Over two years between the two kinds of helo-based capabilities and any form of carrier strike
- looks like a back-to-back switch over from Ocean... so no gap?

[Aethulwulf]

SRN have put together this infographic which looks at the schedule for delivery of the Queen Elizabeth class aircraft carriers and their embarked aircraft. Prepared using MoD statements and public domain information, some dates are estimates and programs are likely to be subject to change.

http://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/timelin ... er-strike/

Looks like the 3 FSS vessels have been left off the infographic. Until they come online, the carriers' ability to sustain high intensity operations will be limited.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Good point: carrier strike in early 2023 and full CEPP operating capability middle of 2026
... so I guess at least two of the order will have been delivered somewhere on that timeline.

MoD being hostage to Main Gates, and as we have not had one, no announcement either (to include; rather than be guessing).

[cockneyjock1974]

Any sign of the sheeting and Scaffolding coming down on HMS Queen Elizabeth ?

Assuming they will have to get her shipshape in the near future for Sea Trials and if the flight deck is still mostly covered then does it imply that delays may be partially down to the flight deck painting and the Thermal paint application ?

She's bow to stern covered in tenting, primarily on the starboard side of the flight deck. Both islands are uncovered now. HMS Diamond has been in Rosyth over the weekend but berthed in the cruise ship jetty?? She's away now, POW still doesn't have Artisan installed but she's unrecognisable with all the covering on her.

[Timmymagic]

She's bow to stern covered in tenting, primarily on the starboard side of the flight deck. Both islands are uncovered now. HMS Diamond has been in Rosyth over the weekend but berthed in the cruise ship jetty?? She's away now, POW still doesn't have Artisan installed but she's unrecognisable with all the covering on her.

I hope someone had the sense to purchase the scaffolding and tentage. The cost to hire all of that, and for the duration it's been on, must have been colossal.

[marktigger]

so what happens when one of the carriers goes for refit?

[Thorvicson]

She's bow to stern covered in tenting, primarily on the starboard side of the flight deck. Both islands are uncovered now. HMS Diamond has been in Rosyth over the weekend but berthed in the cruise ship jetty?? She's away now, POW still doesn't have Artisan installed but she's unrecognisable with all the covering on her.

Cheers CJ nice to see you're still on the job that started when the first blocks were shipped to Rosyth.

So perhaps its is that long deck coating progress that has contributed to delaying the Sea Trials ?

[marktigger]

couple of things on face book have included the paint isn't adhering properly. And the lack of escorts and defensive weapons.

http://forces.net/news/navy/new-british ... an-missile

http://forces.net/news/paint-problems-r ... ft-carrier

[90inFIRST]

I hope someone had the sense to purchase the scaffolding and tentage. The cost to hire all of that, and for the duration it's been on, must have been colossal.[/quote]


They have a contract with a scaffolding company to provide all the scaffolding needed for the construction and the deck work