Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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whitelancer
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by whitelancer »

ArmChairCivvy
Of these, as a system of all three plus some AEW+CAP later on, only the CIWS needs to be on the carrier itself.
I have to disagree. CIWS are very much a last ditch weapon. Even a successful engagement could lead to debris hitting the ship. Not good if you have a deck crowded with aircraft. The carriers need to be able to engage incoming missiles at greater distance. If you prefer think of Seaceptor as a PDMS with added capabilities. You would rely on other ships to provide this capability. Looks good in theory unfortunately war has a habit of upsetting the best laid plans. Remember Friction is ever present in war it can not be avoided, its effects can be mitigated however. Fitting Seaceptor to the carriers would be an essential step in mitigating the effects of Friction and the chance of a supersonic missile getting through any screening ships and hitting it. It may be acceptable to rely solely on escorting ships for lower value assets but the carrier will be such a valuable asset that not to do all that you can reasonable do to ensure its protection is foolish.
Of course foolish decisions are made all the time.
Could any one explain to me the reason why Seawolf very much a PDMS, at least in its original version, was never fitted to either the Invincible class carriers or LPDs, where it would have performed an essential role, but instead was fitted to the T22s who's reason for existence was to protect high value assets such as the carriers and indeed merchant vessels. Their is little point in an escort vessel that can protect itself but not those its supposed to protect. The T22s should have been fitted with a local area air defence system if they were going to carry out their role as escorts effectively.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RetroSicotte »

RichardIC wrote:All points accepted, but having so much riding on such lightly defended vessels still makes me feel queasy.
But they're not lightly defended, they're defended by a full carrier group, the single greatest concentration of firepower in our military.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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Rightly or wrongly, the RN places great stock in 'soft kill' systems.

I can certainly see the benefits. If it works as advertised, then surely luring the incoming weapons away from the carrier or confusing their guidance systems is going to be a better option than putting multiple SAMs or thousands of rounds of 20mm in to the air - especially when the carrier is surrounded by friendly vessels and a/c.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Think Defence »

Surely the point is about layers of the onion, in general, the more layers the better. i.e. it would be better for QE to have the additional layer provided by Sea Ceptor.

So I think the argument about whether it is a good thing or not is rather moot.

The argument is about allocation of resources, putting Sea Ceptor on the QE would demand people, time and money both up front and through life so it isn't free. Without understanding what those costs are, and therefore what other 'things' it would displace it is impossible to say one way or the other whether it is worth it or not, balance, risk and trade offs.

One of the really clever things about Sea Ceptor is its ability to easily nestle within a network, the suggestion of putting a launcher box of some sort on pretty much everything that floats in extremis isn't far from the mark. Distribute your launchers as much as possible and let the one(s) with the best positioning take the shot(s)

Sea Ceptor really is pretty smart in this regards
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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I have missed a few posts so to go back to the Falkland's, Atlantic Conveyor was hit while it was with the Carrier Battle Group, so the Argentinian Super Etendards obviously got within range of the carriers. HMS Invincible did launch Sea Dart missiles though not at either the launch aircraft or missile ,but it is believed at chaff fired by other ships. Chaff certainly appeared to be the only effective answer the RN had at the time to counter Exocet. In fact it is believed that the missile that struck Atlantic Conveyor was first diverted from its intended target by chaff. Seawolf may have been effective against Exocet but the 3 ships fitted with it in the task force were never in a position to engage. In fact with just 5 air launched Exocet the Argentineans managed to sink a modern air defence destroyer and a very valuable merchant ship for no losses on their part. Just as well they didn't have 20 or 30 available.
While things have moved on from their and the RN is better placed to counter such a threat, the threat has moved on as well. With large numbers of anti ship missiles in the hands of a relatively large number of countries. Can we be confident that in any future conflict one of these missiles wont get through any defensive screen available to our carriers? An essential insurance against such a possibility is to fit them with Seaceptor. Of course their is no guarantee that even this will be successful but it is another chance to defeat such a threat

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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I agree it's a no brainer to install the Sea Ceptors. I expect them to be fitted at the first refit. To believe that the T-45's will supply an impregnable barrier would be folly indeed when any serious mission involving the QE's will completely rely on their continuing function for its success.

By the way, yet another argument for the larger carrier being the relative simplicity of this kind of upgrade.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Jdam »

Pymes75 wrote:Rightly or wrongly, the RN places great stock in 'soft kill' systems.

I can certainly see the benefits. If it works as advertised, then surely luring the incoming weapons away from the carrier or confusing their guidance systems is going to be a better option than putting multiple SAMs or thousands of rounds of 20mm in to the air - especially when the carrier is surrounded by friendly vessels and a/c.
Soft kill systems kind of worry me, it redirects the missile rather than destroying it.

That said with crows nest and F-35 with medium range missiles the chances of what happen in the Falkland's will hopefully be greatly reduced.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Oddball »

The Armchair Soldier wrote:
Oddball wrote:Something not to be missed on the telly Tuesday night.

Yesterday (Freeview 19.sky537,virgin206) 9 PM Impossible Engineering focusing on the QE build with a general history of carriers thrown in.
Thanks for the heads up!

Yesterday have an online on demand service too, it seems, so we should be able to catch it on there if we miss it on Tuesday:

http://yesterday.uktv.co.uk/on-demand/
Repeated Friday 10 PM by the look of it as well.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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its all about managing the risk appropriately, and taking steps to mitigate that risk.
1st of all you dont go in an area where the risk is high
if you need to, use f35 to keep aggressors away
if that fails you have the T45
if that fails you have CIWS

What are the chances that all of those 4 layers of defence will fail? probably very small.
As pointed out sea ceptor could add a 5th layer of defence, however at this stage you would only decrease the risk very slightly at quite a cost. You can always reduce the risks further and further, but the cost of doing so will go up and up disproportionately.

However the cost of loosing a carrier is high. Perhaps a modular fit, of which sea ceptor is capable, would be the best option, to add that 5th layer of defence at times when the risk is deemed high and needs mitigating further.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by whitelancer »

RetroSicotte
But they're not lightly defended, they're defended by a full carrier group, the single greatest concentration of firepower in our military.
Something the USN may be able to say not sure the RN can say the same, at least not until QE & POW are provided with proper Air Wings and not this Tailored Air Group nonsense, as well as a properly constituted support group of T45s & T26s. More likely the RN will end up begging for the odd deployment of a squadron of F35 and a handful of assorted helos while scratching around to find any available escort.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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There's nothing wrong with the Tailored Air Group concept. It seems a much more modern and flexible approach at a time when we really need a flexible approach to allow us to operate cheaply.
Just because the Americans do it doesn't mean its the right way to do things.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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I have accidently found the US version of the 'Impossible Engineering' programme about HMS Queen Elizabeth which will be shown next Tuesday on 'Yesterday' channel. :shock: :!:



Subtitles for the Scottish accents, seriously?! :roll:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Opinion3 »

I've always imagined that the greatest challenge in protecting the carrier is not coming up with the missiles / guns or even soft kill solutions. But ensuring that those solutions only engage enemy threats, and do so in the incredibly short time frames needed to allow back up solutions to be deployed.

Having a ring, onion style must be as much about ensuring the carrier can launch and recover it's primary weapon safely than deploying the resources on the carrier. I suspect cost, manpower etc. just aren't the issue. More is this the right strategy? ..... it seems to make more sense to leave that to the frigates and destroyers. Whether we have enough and they are capable enough / properly manned and armed is of course another question.

Surely the subs are the biggest threat, and with our kit I don't think the carrier would last a week in a hostile environment against a capable sub force.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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SKB wrote:I have accidently found the US version of the 'Impossible Engineering' programme about HMS Queen Elizabeth which will be shown next Tuesday on 'Yesterday' channel. :shock: :!:
That programme was annoying on so many levels. Obviously for the consumption of the general population rather than people with an interest in the project.
A superb documentary series was shown of the construction of the cruise liner Queen Mary. A fascinating build - with a documentary to go with it!

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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swoop wrote:That programme was annoying on so many levels. Obviously for the consumption of the general population rather than people with an interest in the project.
I didn't learn or see anything new from the programme. And yes, the programme was very annoying, edited in a very strange American style. Especially with the overuse of unnecessarily loud and aggressive music which distracted from the accompanying narration. I will still watch the UK version on Tuesday to see if it is edited in a more pleasing and interesting style.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Tiny Toy »

shark bait wrote:its all about managing the risk appropriately, and taking steps to mitigate that risk.
1st of all you dont go in an area where the risk is high
if you need to, use f35 to keep aggressors away
if that fails you have the T45
if that fails you have CIWS

What are the chances that all of those 4 layers of defence will fail? probably very small.
Against attack submarines only one of those defences is any use (don't go to dangerous places to start with - which is the only value that fielding a carrier brings you in the first place). Hence why you need escorts anyway. Hence why bothering with point defences on a carrier is pointless.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by S M H »

the lack of air defence missiles on the Queen Elizabeth is twofold. If the carrier carried its own the treasury would ask why you need the air defence destroyer. The need to get the ships into service at reasonable cost. The upgrade radar for the type 23s is fitted so the practicality of fitting Sea captor on such a large ship is simple because it needs no tracking radar to glide the missile using up deck space. The crew manning would need to increase slightly to operate and maintain the system. This would provide air defence in depth but the most effective air defence is the number of aircraft carried. This will effective be about 2014-17 as our purchase of F35s will be spaced out in batches during the production run. Until we operate the carriers with surfactant F35 the fitting of Sea captor would be sensible in first refit especially as we are using the carriers to cover L.P.H.
The carriers submarine screen would be among the best with the type 23 and merlin's however the orphaned ones that were used for the rotor heads should be added to the upgrades to the ex R.A.F. ones to provide more cabs as they will be stretched with crows nest duties.(that is if they have not been reduced to spares0 .

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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shark bait
There's nothing wrong with the Tailored Air Group concept. It seems a much more modern and flexible approach at a time when we really need a flexible approach to allow us to operate cheaply.
Just because the Americans do it doesn't mean its the right way to do things.
The TAG does seem an eminently sensible idea, it allows you to put on board any combination of aircraft and helicopters that are required for any particular task. From a full complement of F35s plus Crowsnest to any combination of attack, assault, heavy lift or anti submarine helicopters you desire. What's not to like? Well not a lot, if you are a Politian more interested in appearance than substance or the RAF which gets a very big say in what is and isn't deployed aboard. (RAF interference in Naval Air operations have always proved a disaster far the Navy.)

If the starting point was to have a properly constituted Carrier Air Wing of 36 F35 4 Crowsnest and a few Merlin's, ( which was I believe the standard complement the carriers were designed to carry), all owned operated and controlled by the RN, properly worked up with regular deployments aboard ship, which could then be modified as required to produce a TAG. Even creating a giant Commando carrier! (Even the USN has done that sort of thing before though only rarely.) I wouldn't have a problem with that. But that is not what's going to happen. What is likely to happen is that their will be sporadic deployments of F35 and various combinations of helicopters, basically whatever the RN can get hold of at any particular time. Of course it will all be dressed up to look good. I can just see a future Joint Warrior. A Merlin Crowsnest hovering in the distance, marines running across the vast expanse of deck to waiting Chinooks, soon they are lifting off followed by mean looking Apaches. Then their is a deafening roar as the first of half a dozen F35s launch from the ski jump. In a remote Scottish glen we hear the rhythmic thump of rotor blades as the Chinooks appear with escorting Apaches buzzing around like angry wasps ready to unleash devastation on any enemy lurking in the heather. The Chinooks rear up as they come into land, door gunners alert searching for signs of the enemy. Marines rushing down the rear ramp quickly taking up position as in seconds the Chinooks depart the thump of the rotors being replaced by the scream of jets as the F35, pass low overhead. I'm sure the watching media will be suitable impressed, while it will be great fun for the participants and even provide some useful training to the few. Amazing what can be done with half a dozen F35s and a handful of Chinooks and Apaches and a company of marines! It's hardly what we spent over £6 billion to achieve but in the TAG era I suspect its what we will get (when we get anything).
From the Politian's point of view TAGs are a godsend. They obviously need to justify spending all that money on two giant carriers, but equipping them with proper Carrier Air Wings would be very expensive, (100 F35s alone for the RN), while a TAG can consist of any combination of any suitable aircraft or helicopter that's available whether its RN, Army or RAF. No need for all those F35s for the RN a dozen will do, the RAF can always make up the numbers if needed, well for one carrier at least!!
For the RAF TAGs give them control over what goes on the carriers (they provide most of the assets in particular F35s) and if their is one thing the RAF has always wanted is control over ALL air assets.
For the Navy TAGs give them hope. They sacrificed a lot to get their two carriers, admitting it was a mistake would be very hard so TAGs justify the sacrifies they made while giving them the hope that in the future they will be able to rectify their shortcomings and reconstitute proper carrier aviation. Through Deck Cruisers spring to mind.

Shark bait I hope I've explained my reservations about Tailored Air Groups. A cynical view perhaps, but a justified one I believe.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

Remember the QE's naming ceremony last July? The VIP's and guests all received a nice glossy 196 page book. Well, here it all is. Packed with information, photos, diagrams and even a message from HM The Queen herself.
http://issuu.com/faircountmedia/docs/hms_queenelizabeth

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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whitelancer wrote: Shark bait I hope I've explained my reservations about Tailored Air Groups. A cynical view perhaps, but a justified one I believe.
I think I understand your reservations.
Its perhaps similar to my feelings on the tailored air group, the concept is sound, its the organisational structure and squabbling that cause the issues.
I also feel it is no longer economically feasible to have duplicate capabilities across different forces, and quite rightly so. Asset and capability sharing is going to become more common, Philip Hammond has mentioned Joint Forces Command will slowly become more important, and I think that's a good thing. However changing a policy is easy, but changing culture and staff attitudes if much more difficult and it will take time.
Hopefully the forces will slowly see sense and see that non of them can act independently any longer, and maybe the tailored air group can work well. Its also worth remembering the carriers will be around for a very long time, during which its not unthinkable we could have 100+ F35 making the assets much more freely available for the carriers .


Also the scene you described does sound awesome! I cant wait to see that on you tube
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

I believe JFC could achieve a lot.

Hence, there are lessons to be learnt from the US where it was started much earlier (and has already been abolished).
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by cockneyjock1974 »

I have been snapping away today and will post tomorrow. I must admit I will be posting the same pics on the mess.net. Although I will also freely admit the QE page on that forum is vastly inferior to this one.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by -Eddie- »

Good to know CJ, I can't wait to see them. Also thanks to SKB, that's an interesting PDF.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

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SKB wrote:Remember the QE's naming ceremony last July? The VIP's and guests all recieved a nice glossy 196 page book. Well, here it all is. Packed with information, photos, diagrams and even a message from HM The Queen herself.
http://issuu.com/faircountmedia/docs/hms_queenelizabeth
Great find! Thanks for posting.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

SKB wrote:Remember the QE's naming ceremony last July? The VIP's and guests all recieved a nice glossy 196 page book. Well, here it all is. Packed with information, photos, diagrams and even a message from HM The Queen herself.
http://issuu.com/faircountmedia/docs/hms_queenelizabeth
Thanks.

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