Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Jensy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Jensy »

Ron5 wrote:
Jensy wrote:pursue one very large CVN
As long as it's longer than the British ones, one meter will do :D
That's not fair. It's colder up here! :P

I think they should also push for three islands just for the sake of it. Could have "liberte, egalite, fraternite" written on each one...

serge750
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by serge750 »

Perhaps they could have their radar on a Eiffel tower structure :lol:

dmereifield
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

Ron5 wrote:From The Brit, firstly the UK deployment followed by the 2020 French equivalent to make everyone feel good altho there's reason to believe that's not 100% accurate (too many Rafales, not enough escorts).

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Really? Isn't 20 fast jets on the low side? Thought they normally deployed with high 20's?

And the escorts, don't they normally deploy with 2 dedicated escorts and then a third already deployed independently joins them somewhere later?

inch
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by inch »

I think in time Europe will try to integrate more in its defence programs ,operating separate entity from nato as in doing EU only/ run operations ,but I expect them to try to rope UK in at every opportunity tho,yes maybe Germany only goes the way of having a squadron of future french/German next generation fighters on board french carrier but I'm wouldn't put it past France to try and push for a 2 carrier program and get Germany to help ,think France always wanted a 2 carrier requirement

Blackstone
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Blackstone »

Ron5 wrote:Why would Germany want a carrier? Never really had one before.
Purely for their own needs they don't, and likely couldn't make it happen in any kind of reasonable time frame unless they bought from someone else. But a joint carrier project presents possibilities depending on its shape. A purely French-German proposal seems mainly to be a play for more German industrial involvement, "paid for" not only in German money but in German manpower bolstering the French program. A more fully "European" project, either under the NATO or EU banner, makes sense given that Europe as a whole has a interest in power projection to a greater extent than Germany on its own.

Max Jones
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Max Jones »

dmereifield wrote:Really? Isn't 20 fast jets on the low side? Thought they normally deployed with high 20's?
They usually deploy with around 16-22 Rafales (mixed with Super Etendards in their early years) with a couple E-2s and usually about 2-5 helicopters. Usually there is a third ASW frigate though (and some foreign escorts).

As much as people criticise the QE air wing, most nations carry far smaller aircraft lands than they can, particularly with France which primarily focuses on its fixed wing aircraft without a major ASW component like ours.

Russia, aside from having a crumbling carrier capability anyway, only deployed about 20 aircraft on their last major combat deployment to Syria and had two jets fall into the ocean in the process, leaving with 18. For a ~55,000t carrier that isn't much. China is more secretive but with similar carriers I don't expect they regularly use much more, though they aren't really engaged in overseas operations and expeditionary warfare anyway.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by The Armchair Soldier »

Feel free to discuss foreign aircraft carriers in this thread as long as it relates back to the topic of the Queen Elizabeth-class (for example, brief discussions comparing the carriers to other foreign carriers are fine in my book, but let’s not draw it out for too long). If things diverge too far from the topic, I’ll be back to steer it back on track.

There’s no need to flame out other users and I’ll be handing out punishments the next time it happens.

My PMs are open to everyone to discuss any concerns. Don’t reply to this post.

Ron5
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:From The Brit, firstly the UK deployment followed by the 2020 French equivalent to make everyone feel good altho there's reason to believe that's not 100% accurate (too many Rafales, not enough escorts).

Image

Image
Really? Isn't 20 fast jets on the low side? Thought they normally deployed with high 20's?

And the escorts, don't they normally deploy with 2 dedicated escorts and then a third already deployed independently joins them somewhere later?
I've seen this list for the 2020 deployment:

FS Charles de Gaulle
FS Auvergne
FS Chevalier Paul
FS Var
HS Spetsai (Greek Navy)
SSN
18x Rafale M
2x E-2C Hawkeye aircraft
1x NH90 NFH helicopter
2x Dauphin helicopters

No idea if accurate but indicates difference of opinions.

Ron5
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

A picture of CdeG's hangar ..

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RichardIC
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by RichardIC »

Makes you appreciate how large the hangar on QE is.

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Pictured with five fast jets on CDG and four on QE. CDG seems to have an E-2. QE pic caption says there are five Merlin.

dmereifield
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by dmereifield »

Ron5 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Ron5 wrote:From The Brit, firstly the UK deployment followed by the 2020 French equivalent to make everyone feel good altho there's reason to believe that's not 100% accurate (too many Rafales, not enough escorts).

Image

Image
Really? Isn't 20 fast jets on the low side? Thought they normally deployed with high 20's?

And the escorts, don't they normally deploy with 2 dedicated escorts and then a third already deployed independently joins them somewhere later?
I've seen this list for the 2020 deployment:

FS Charles de Gaulle
FS Auvergne
FS Chevalier Paul
FS Var
HS Spetsai (Greek Navy)
SSN
18x Rafale M
2x E-2C Hawkeye aircraft
1x NH90 NFH helicopter
2x Dauphin helicopters

No idea if accurate but indicates difference of opinions.
Thanks. So only 18 fast jets and only 2 French escorts....

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hovematlot
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by hovematlot »

On that pic of Queen Elizabeths hanger what that to the left of the closest Lightening? Portable chiller/fridge or something, looks like there is one further aft as well. Does that imply there is something wrong with her fridges/air con or whatever?

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Jensy
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Jensy »

hovematlot wrote:On that pic of Queen Elizabeths hanger what that to the left of the closest Lightening? Portable chiller/fridge or something, looks like there is one further aft as well. Does that imply there is something wrong with her fridges/air con or whatever?
I think that image is from Westland-19 and those big white things are for test and analysis equipment, needed for Westlant-18/9. The fans are for cooling whatever lies inside (equipment or people).

Can't be certain but I think they belong to the Americans as they didn't seem to be there in later photos.

Will be curious to see if they reappear on PoW when she goes West, or if they've gotten sufficient data from QE.

inch
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by inch »

Thought qe and CDG hangars were very similar in size ,off top of head only 15 m longer but about same width on qe ? Not too much difference if I'm right

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by bobp »

Jensy wrote: whatever lies inside (equipment or people).
Test equipment for the instrumented F35B they were on board at that time.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

Storing Photon Torpodeos

PhillyJ
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by PhillyJ »

Ron5 wrote:A picture of CdeG's hangar ..
Jeez, did they have to let the air out of the tyres to get that Hawkeye to clear the hangar! :shock:

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by PhillyJ »

hovematlot wrote:On that pic of Queen Elizabeths hanger what that to the left of the closest Lightening? Portable chiller/fridge or something, looks like there is one further aft as well. Does that imply there is something wrong with her fridges/air con or whatever?
I can confirm that the fridges on PWLS work fine, certainly the ones in the Warfare Mess do! :lol:

PhillyJ
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by PhillyJ »

inch wrote:Thought qe and CDG hangars were very similar in size ,off top of head only 15 m longer but about same width on qe ? Not too much difference if I'm right
Hangar deck is 155m x 35m. Height of 6.7m, increasing to 10m in some places. Can accomodate up to 20 F35B for maintenance.

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

QE and PoW are no longer the largest-ever ships in Portsmouth Harbour.



Length: 880 ft (268.22 m)
Beam: 106 ft (32.31 m)
Draught: 28 ft (8.53 m)
Decks: 13 passenger decks
Speed: 22 knots (41 km/h; 25 mph)
Capacity: 2,767 passengers
Crew: 833

Pity that her horn sounds like a road drill....

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(Warship Porn) 11th July 2020

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Timmymagic »

SKB wrote:QE and PoW are no longer the largest-ever ships in Portsmouth Harbour.
Bugger...presumably she's just tying up for a while? Can't imagine there is much demand..
PhillyJ wrote:Hangar deck is 155m x 35m. Height of 6.7m, increasing to 10m in some places. Can accomodate up to 20 F35B for maintenance.
I think someone sketched it out and it was possible to get 23-24 F-35B inside the hangar.
Are you sure on those dimensions? There was a really good thread on different carriers (below) where someone attempted to work out the deck and hangarage sizes for different carriers. Biggest figure for QE was 156 x 33 for 5148 m2. If you're certain I'll let him know.


inch wrote:Thought qe and CDG hangars were very similar in size ,off top of head only 15 m longer but about same width on qe ? Not too much difference if I'm right
Apparently CdG's hangar is anywhere from 4,300 to 4,600 m2, QE Class is c5,000 to 5,500 m2. So roughly 20% bigger.

I suspect the QE Class has more 'usable' space and is more efficient with the larger lift entrances and 'top hat' working area. Given the overall size of QE in comparison to CdG there is also going to be far more storage space, workshops, offices etc. on the hangar deck level which all lead to a far more usable and effective space.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

Timmymagic wrote:I suspect the QE Class has more 'usable' space and is more efficient
What's the matter with you? How can you possibly entertain the thought that the French ship is in any way superior, even for a second????

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SKB
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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by SKB »

I'll bet CdeG's food is better than the QE/PoW NAAFI. :mrgreen:

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(@NavyLookout) 5th July 2020
@HMSPWLS Capability Insertion Period continues

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Ron5 »

SKB wrote:I'll bet CdD's food is better than the QE/PoW NAAFI
I understand CdeG is not a popular assignment.

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Re: Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

Post by Bring Deeps »

It is interesting that in the 75 years since the end of WWII there have been no wars in which opposing aircraft carriers have launched attacks on each other. That statistic is even more remarkable given that the first true aircraft carrier wasn't commissioned until 1918. Of course there have been conflicts in which attacks have been attempted or made against carriers in other ways but I am pretty sure none have been sunk.

Assuming carrier on carrier conflict is still a realistic possiblity it means that any debate about a particular ship's capability has to be to a degree speculative. However, when it comes to hangar size at least you can consider the effect of aircraft attrition rates in conflict. That is especially as it seems inevitable that the UK and France will only ever have small fleets of carrier capable jets.

I am sure that there is plenty of data on jet fighter attrition rates but the one that I looked at (as it was easy) related to Sea Harrier and GR3 losses in the Falklands. Of the 28 Sea Harriers and 14 GR3s used a total of 6 Sea Harriers and 4 GR3s were lost in the space of 52 days. By my maths that is an attrition rate of 24%. Assuming that the max number of deployed F35Bs on a QE class carrier is going to be 36 (out of a fleet of 48) and assuming no USMC back-up I think that the hangar is going to be plenty big enough.

I didn't do the numbers for CDG as I am about to cook a delicious English dish and don't have the time.

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