Queen Elizabeth Class Aircraft Carriers - News and Discussion

[dmereifield]

Another 4 still to come according to Navylookout

Is that for a total of 6 or 8?

[Max Jones]

Another 4 still to come according to Navylookout

Is that for a total of 6 or 8?

Should be 8 - NavyLookout was replying to a comment on their own post where there were already four jets on deck.

[dmereifield]

Another 4 still to come according to Navylookout

Is that for a total of 6 or 8?

Should be 8 - NavyLookout was replying to a comment on their own post where there were already four jets on deck.

Thanks. I think that would be the most she has has on board to date. Look forward to seeing some photos

[cockneyjock1974]

Does anyone know (probably not) if SRVL will be practiced during this deployment?

[Max Jones]

Another 4 still to come according to Navylookout

Is that for a total of 6 or 8?

Should be 8 - NavyLookout was replying to a comment on their own post where there were already four jets on deck.

Thanks. I think that would be the most she has has on board to date. Look forward to seeing some photos

It's the most UK jets - during Westlant 19 I believe she had 8: 6 UK + 2 US.

I never saw them all at once in any photo though and it seems like they would want to get a shot with eight operational F-35Bs together, so they might not have all been on at the same time.

[ArmChairCivvy]

either way evenly split between the two (8+8 or 12+12)

The thinking that the helicopter carrier function will be delivered by the QEC class, routinely at the same time as delivering carrier striken fell by the wayside in the first half of the past decade and 'tailored airwing' concept got to the fore (hence carrier strike and CEPP IOCs are years apart). More specifically: initial Carrier Strike operating capability in 2020 and Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) by 2026.
- 12 a/c being the magic number just because someone, ages ago, wrote that down into the definition for meeting the first IOC

More broadly the thinking that brown and blue navies are interchangeable is/ would have been downright dangerous. In addition to the airwing composition looking v different (in Strike vs. LitM roles), also the mindset in the commanding officer’s decision making would have to reflect the special circumstance - and different threats - of the littoral.
- another thread for future MCM having to be able to self-deploy with the MTF (i.e the composite TF), as well as for many other things ... of which the Crowsnest news seem to have gone especially quiet

[Timmymagic]

Does anyone know (probably not) if SRVL will be practiced during this deployment?

Not seen anything about it since the trials off the US with the test aircraft.

I'd imagine it will take an age to go through all of the data that was collected on SRVL, see what worked and what didn't. If there are changes to be made they'll need to re-do the simulator scenarios. In fact the whole SRVL exercise, purely from what we've heard, on QE's East Coast jaunt seemed fairly limited. There didn't seem to be any trials with external loads or at slightly higher speeds. Really did look like baby steps.

Got a feeling (nothing more, pure speculation) that we won't see it until PoW goes to the US east coast and does trials with the test aircraft and pilots again. That will also be necessary to test the theory versus the practice on the Bedford Array. Timing wise for QE it might mean that we don't see it with operational aircraft until she has had her first refit and Bedford Array fitted and more trials of SRVL have concluded.

[bobp]

Crowsnest news seem to have gone especially quiet

Crowsnest program is running very very late, due to gremlins in its signal processor. That was the last I heard.

[dmereifield]

either way evenly split between the two (8+8 or 12+12)

The thinking that the helicopter carrier function will be delivered by the QEC class, routinely at the same time as delivering carrier striken fell by the wayside in the first half of the past decade and 'tailored airwing' concept got to the fore (hence carrier strike and CEPP IOCs are years apart). More specifically: initial Carrier Strike operating capability in 2020 and Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) by 2026.

Sorry, what are you saying? Surely the tailored air group comprised of both fast jets and helicopters (I.e. combined carrier strike and helicopter carrier) is what we'll be seeing for a decade or more, since we barely have enough F35Bs for a strike wing on one carrier, consistently, let alone both if them?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Read the runes ... for 2026
" a strike wing on one carrier, consistently, let alone both if them?"

A strike wing for one and a half (CAP/CAS) for the other. Keyword: LitM
- technical note: over the long term (not when they are both still brand new) carrier availability will be 1.4 at a random time point

[Max Jones]

either way evenly split between the two (8+8 or 12+12)

The thinking that the helicopter carrier function will be delivered by the QEC class, routinely at the same time as delivering carrier striken fell by the wayside in the first half of the past decade and 'tailored airwing' concept got to the fore (hence carrier strike and CEPP IOCs are years apart). More specifically: initial Carrier Strike operating capability in 2020 and Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) by 2026.

Sorry, what are you saying? Surely the tailored air group comprised of both fast jets and helicopters (I.e. combined carrier strike and helicopter carrier) is what we'll be seeing for a decade or more, since we barely have enough F35Bs for a strike wing on one carrier, consistently, let alone both if them?

Are there any plans to move away from this system? I know some very early statements reported Air wings of '36 F-35Bs + 4 Merlins' but the general carrier doctrine it to provide a multipurpose air wing which should include ASW assets and, depending on mission, possibly other capabilities with different aircraft.

[Jake1992]

either way evenly split between the two (8+8 or 12+12)

The thinking that the helicopter carrier function will be delivered by the QEC class, routinely at the same time as delivering carrier striken fell by the wayside in the first half of the past decade and 'tailored airwing' concept got to the fore (hence carrier strike and CEPP IOCs are years apart). More specifically: initial Carrier Strike operating capability in 2020 and Carrier Enabled Power Projection (CEPP) by 2026.

Sorry, what are you saying? Surely the tailored air group comprised of both fast jets and helicopters (I.e. combined carrier strike and helicopter carrier) is what we'll be seeing for a decade or more, since we barely have enough F35Bs for a strike wing on one carrier, consistently, let alone both if them?

Are there any plans to move away from this system? I know some very early statements reported Air wings of '36 F-35Bs + 4 Merlins' but the general carrier doctrine it to provide a multipurpose air wing which should include ASW assets and, depending on mission, possibly other capabilities with different aircraft.

Wasn’t that just a bodged report in a paper with the seeing the 36 F35 figure and seeing that “standard” load out of 40 aircraft, putting 2 and 2 together and getting 5.

I can’t imagine the RN ever looked at an air wing of only 4 merlin to undertake ASW, AEW and SAR

[Scimitar54]

The ASW element was planned to be dispersed amongst the Escorts and Replenishment Ships, when the Max Load out of F35B was required, to ease the likely restriction on “Strike” Sortie Rate!

[Timmymagic]

Might depend on the threat. The RN have always said that you need 8-9 ASW helos to provide 24-7 ASW coverage of a task force.

But if your potential adversary has no submarines you might lower the number.

Equally though if a potential enemy has submarines.... they're also going to have aircraft...which means you'll need 8-9 x HM.2 for ASW AND 4-5 x HM.2 for Crowsnest. Minimum 12 x Merlin, probably more like 15 (half of our total fleet). 2 x Merlin HM.2 might be on accompanying T23/26, maybe another 2 on accompanying RFA's, so you're still going to need 8-11 Merlin HM.2 and probably 2 Merlin HC.4 for CSAR onboard.

[ArmChairCivvy]

just a bodged report in a paper with the seeing the 36 F35 figure

Papers got carried away with all kinds of drawings, because the capacity figure "missions per day" is quite multidimensional, and not easily explained in the space that other than "trade" publications would allocate
- you can boil it down to what Scimitar says
- let's get the 24+12 deployable first, so that we can make the best use of assets we already have and have manned (at great opportunity cost). While also bearing this

which means you'll need 8-9 x HM.2 for ASW AND 4-5 x HM.2 for Crowsnest. Minimum 12 x Merlin, probably more like 15 (half of our total fleet)

in mind... it comes to mind how I get ready for an expedition: pack everything that I think I will need... and oops, there is no space left for food. Nor are there any 'escorts' to help to carry it

[Scimitar54]

What about 2 on the T45’s? Also, if “the RN have always said that you need 8-9 ASW Helo’s to protect a Task Force” Then how is it that the RN, at the height of the Cold War with Eagle (R05) and Ark Royal IV (R09) both managed it with just 6 x Sea King ASW?
Answer is, I think that they have included the 2 x Search and Rescue Helo’s to make 8! In Eagle and Ark Royals day, these were Wessex, not Sea King.
.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Sorry for putting twitter here.

But, this movie clearly shows, how QNLZ class CVF differs from American Wasp/America-class LHDs. QNLZ's flight deck is very very significantly larger than those LHDs. Clearly,
- LHDs' capable F35B operation
- and QNLZ class CVF's F35B operation
means completely different thing.

The former is, "can fly a few F35Bs when land-attack is needed, and can send a few when air defense is needed",
while the latter is, "ready to fight 24/7 for both land attack and air-defense, with very high tempo of operation".

[Max Jones]

What about 2 on the T45’s? Also, if “the RN have always said that you need 8-9 ASW Helo’s to protect a Task Force” Then how is it that the RN, at the height of the Cold War with Eagle (R05) and Ark Royal IV (R09) both managed it with just 6 x Sea King ASW?
Answer is, I think that they have included the 2 x Search and Rescue Helo’s to make 8! In Eagle and Ark Royals day, these were Wessex, not Sea King.
.

Not all carriers are the same. UK Naval doctrine would have been different in the 1960s/70s to the 2020s and onwards. The Invincible class often had a 50/50 split between harriers and ASW helicopters, not including 3-4 AEW Sea Kings.

Charles De Gaulle, for example, has never carried more than maybe four or five helicopters of any kind and these aren't really ASW specialists, usually it's just 2-3 for SAR roles while one or two squadrons of Rafales and a couple E-2s makeup the main air wing.

[Scimitar54]

I agree with you Donald San, but you could have gone even further by saying “Land Attack, Surface Attack and Air Defence (All with High Tempo)”.

[Scimitar54]

Unfortunately, CDG’S Air wing is inadequate for full spectrum “Carrier Strike” and the Invincible CVS’s, were not Strike Carriers, so no comparison can be made with either of these.

Naval Doctrine May evolve, but Facts ARE Facts!

[Max Jones]

Unfortunately, CDG’S Air wing is inadequate for full spectrum “Carrier Strike” and the Invincible CVS’s, were not Strike Carriers, so no comparison can be made with either of these.

Naval Doctrine May evolve, but Facts ARE Facts!

I think it's quite difficult to make any comparison with those standards though. In terms of role in the Royal Navy, the Queen Elizabeth-class is replacing the Invincible-class but in terms of size it isn't directly comparable to US CVNs or CdG which are different sizes and CATOBAR, with all the other STOVL CVs being light carriers of half the size at most.

There are also other factors to consider. For example, the Sea King has a noticeably higher range so each aircraft is able to conduct anti-submarine patrols for a longer period. The escort forces would have also been very different at the time in regards to escorting submarines and ASW frigates.

[Timmymagic]

Then how is it that the RN, at the height of the Cold War with Eagle (R05) and Ark Royal IV (R09) both managed it with just 6 x Sea King ASW?
Answer is, I think that they have included the 2 x Search and Rescue Helo’s to make 8! In Eagle and Ark Royals day, these were Wessex, not Sea King.

Suspect the threat has significantly changed...you used to be able to hear Soviet boats from hundreds of miles away...and they would have been banking on lots of frigates and destroyers rather than 4.

[xav]

[Scimitar54]

So a Merlin with auxiliary tanks, having a range 50% greater than a Sea King, in your opinion has less range than a Sea King and therefore more are needed on board a QEC .... total Tosh! The QEC were the replacements for the CVSs ...... They were not, they were the result of a realisation that since that fateful 1966 decision, we had been driving (sailing) down a dead end. The QEC are the modern interpretation of what we should have had all along following on from Ark Royal IV, (whether in STOVL or CATOBAR configuration).

Don’t get me wrong, we had good service from the Invicible’s, but they never were proper “Strike Carriers”. It is true that they were eventually used in a Somewhat limited strike role, but that is only because they were all that we had available when we needed a Strike Carrier. The Invincible's were designed as ASW cruisers for N. Atlantic Task Groups, with if memory serves me correctly 11-12 x Sea Kings. 5 x Sea Harriers were later added to counter the threat of Russian Long Range Patrol Aircraft.

Any comparison of ratios can only be made with a full spectrum air groups of a similar size. Eagle and Ark Royal IV are the only comparisons that are relevant here.

[ArmChairCivvy]

they never were proper “Strike Carriers”. It is true that they were eventually used in a Somewhat limited strike role, but that is only because they were all that we had available when we needed a Strike Carrier. The Invincible's were designed as ASW cruisers for N. Atlantic Task Groups

As you point out: escort carriers.

The strike role comes up in a funny episode in the film "Behind Enemy Lines" which is about air war in Yugoslavia. Things get hot and the RN liaison officer on the US carrier asks "Can we help?"
- "Yes, by staying out of the way"... unfortunately from the TV length version that has been cut. May be from the long one, too