Royal Navy SSK?

[WhitestElephant]

A thought on the RN's low submarine availability;

SSK's may be a way to increase submarine availability, but I'm left wondering if a better option would be to invest those resources into a double crew system.

The V boats have their port and starboard crews, why not SSN's? Sub could deploy for a year, with a new crew flown out after 6 months for example.

Better to invest in the SSN fleet and establish a second crew system. Also post Dreadnought, seek to increase the SSN fleet from 7 to 9 with the Astute replacement class.

As for where I would get the resources? I would cut the army by 20-30,000. And with it, I would implement the above and fix a whole other bunch of issues in the Royal Navy and Air Force.

[bobp]

Without a doubt more Sailors are going to be needed. Crews going to sea for nine months is bad news if you have a loved one or family waiting for you.

[Spinflight]

Especially when your family is living in accommodation that no council would tolerate housing new arrivals in.

[bobp]

That's very true also, my son lives in a MQ at Blandford Forum, last visit he pointed out some of the problems. Although they are doing some improvements progress appears to be slow.

[Timmymagic]

BMT have come up with a new concept for a very small SSK. Called the Wyvern.

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/6740041/S ... WYVERN.pdf

It's 820 tonnes submerged with a tiny crew. Could be perfect for training, protection of safe transit routes and SF insertion. Looks like its designed to be cheap in comparison to other SSK's.

It sits in BMT's portfolio below the Vidar7

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/5141143/S ... Vidar7.pdf

And below the much larger conventional Vidar36 and revolutionary SSGT

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/5141143/S ... idar36.pdf

http://www.bmtdsl.co.uk/media/5141143/S ... 4_SSGT.pdf

[jedibeeftrix]

I like the wyvern, as the cost should not fundamnetally compromise the viability of a nuclear fleet. Do we have a use for it?

[Timmymagic]

I like the wyvern, as the cost should not fundamnetally compromise the viability of a nuclear fleet. Do we have a use for it?

Training for crews and as a 'clockwork mouse' for MPA, Merlin, ASW ships and SSN's. Particularly in the littoral, and lets face it SSK threats are what we're more likely to face. Frees up some of the SSN's time as well and takes pressure off the fleet. Safe passage for the SSBN's at Faslane could be a role and limited close in reconnaissance and SF insertion in shallow waters/restricted seas where you wouldn't want to risk an SSN. Although it has to be said the slightly larger Vidar7 seems better equipped for that role.

[Timmymagic]

I like the wyvern, as the cost should not fundamnetally compromise the viability of a nuclear fleet. Do we have a use for it?

Given the proliferation of SSK users it could get some more trade through Barrow without taking up too much space resources in the build hall. I know it's a pipedream but 8 of these could have more of an effect on the RN's capability at similar cost to 1 Astute.

[jedibeeftrix]

Even just three of them to conduct the specialist roles you list above.

[Timmymagic]

Even just three of them to conduct the specialist roles you list above.

Realistically you'd need a least 4 to cover one role, on the basis of 1 in refit, 1 training, 1 alongside and 1 deployed. 4 at Faslane could do training and safe transit lane sanitation. Thats not bad in itself, but another fleet of 4 opens up all the SF support and recon roles as well. They would be a great place for potential SSN captains to cut their teeth as well.

[rec]

A small SSK force would be useful for all of th above, and built as part of a national shipbuilding startegy, along with Type 31 and MARS SSS

[Simon82]

If Wyvern can be made cheap enough it may have a much greater potential for export than the Type 31e frigate. Especially considering the growing market for small, affordable diesel-electric submarines for use in the littorals.

[Repulse]

The global ambition of the UK would be better served by more SSNS, rather than SSKs. I agree it would probably make more sense then building half arsed T31e frigates.

[Timmymagic]

The global ambition of the UK would be better served by more SSNS, rather than SSKs. I agree it would probably make more sense then building half arsed T31e frigates.

No room in Barrow for more SSN's for a while with the remainder of the Astutes and Dreadnought Class being built without colossal investment that probably wouldn't get a return. Might be room for something smaller though. Don't think RR can build more PWR2 or PWR3 in the timeframe either, the ship sailed on an additional Astute some time ago mores the pity.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Small SSK only has small sonar and analysis power. WYVERN has a set of sonar suits but all are small (TASS is clip-on), and Vidar7 even less. In modern active ASW world, "a cheap CAPTAS4 tower" (like River or even PSV like) will be much better (and even cheaper) to be used around Faslane, which I think is worth thinking.

So I think they are good as
- special force operations (keep silent, be better than SSN)
- ASW target for training (cheaper than using SSN)
- enemy port entrance patrol, if with long AIP diving time (just hide, listen and count, never act)
- of course, can be used for friendly port entrance patrol as a secondary task

Worth thinking, but not yet clear if RN really needs it. On the other hand, for defensive warfare such as northern part of Norway, Sweden, Baltic nations, and even Okinawa/Japan, these small SSKs will be a good option.

[ArmChairCivvy]

for defensive warfare such as northern part of Norway, Sweden, Baltic nations, and even Okinawa/Japan, these small SSKs will be a good option.

My first thought was that it was a carbon copy of the new Swedish sub. No serious intent/ effort behind it, just to get more visibility by having a broader "product" catalogue.

[shark bait]

The global ambition of the UK would be better served by more SSNS, rather than SSKs. I agree it would probably make more sense then building half arsed T31e frigates.

Yep, on operations there is no substitute for an SSN.

The RN could definitely do with more, but that's impossible for the next couple of decades. Perhaps a fleet of SSK's for training, along with novel watch system for the SSN's could provide much greater on-station time for the Astute fleet?

I do agree with the last point. I have said many times if the T31 is just a patrol boat there are better ways to improve the maritime security of the UK such as MPA's and SSK's.

[Spinflight]

If the unit price were the same which would offer the best value? Five diesel electric subs, many of the components for which are in or have been in production for the astutes or five bare bones light Frigates?

Reputedly we have or had a t-boat on tlam duty in the Indian ocean on a former prime ministers explicit instructions. Ffs.

Surely for our own and foreign training a handful of ssk would offer far more, with far fewer crew, than a pimped up OPV?

Even freeing up a single astute from training duties would be worth the entire cost of a class, whereas the actual benefit of T31s is rather debatable.

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[donald_of_tokyo]

Spinfligh-san

A light frigate (LFF) and a SSK has very different aspects:

A- covering standing tasks : LFF good / SSK no
B- port visiting : LFF good / SSK not much
C- CASD ASW support: LFF not good / SSK now so so good, but in future? (*1)
D- TF escort: LFF doable / SSK no (cannot deploy with TF)
E- Special Force operation : LFF so so / SSK very good
F- ASW training: LFF no / SSK very good (*2)
G- British water defense: LFF marginal / SSK very good.

*1: modern subs are so quiet that active multi-static is the key. But a sub relies on "stealth" for her protection. If SSK pings, its location is detectable from 100-200 km away. Multi-static also needs communication with other assets, also weakening SSK.

*2: There are many many NATO SSKs, you can train with. Also Astute themselves need to train agains escorts.

In short, SSK option will, consume 3-4 T26 for "A", may free up 2 T26 for "C" (but not sure in future) and also 1-2 Astute from "F". For me, there is not clear "which is better" issue here.

And, all the other will depend on what you think is the "more critical" threats. For Japan, SSK is more needed than a LFF, because we are confronting Chinese navy. For self-defense (coastal or chork point), SSK is superb. So, if coastal self defense, such as north sea, GIUK become very important, then SSK will be much better. If deploying worldwide is important, SSK has almost no place to live, I'm afraid.

Surely for our own and foreign training a handful of ssk would offer far more, with far fewer crew, than a pimped up OPV?

"Pimped up OPV" is too ambiguous naming. For me, a LFF is NOT a pimped up OPV (but yes Floral = Patrol Frigate is). Difference between an OPV and a LFF is larger than that between a LFF and a T26. If a LFF is "a pimped up OPV", a Type-26 is "a pimped up LFF".

[Spinflight]

Covering standing tasks and port visits are indeed very important Donald, though warfighting does trump both.

On a two way range a light frigate with a pop gun doesn't add very much at all.

Even restricting ourselves to peacetime use defence diplomacy isn't restricted to hosting cocktail parties. And ssks are hardly useless for standing tasks, except wigs obviously.

The RN faces many challenges but crewing is the biggest one. Giving submariners another option which doesn't include nine month deployments might in itself be positive enough for retention to be worth it.

Japan is course has it's own light frigate requirement, the 30dex or whatever it is being called this week. Sounds rather more capable than the T31 is shaping up to be.

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[donald_of_tokyo]

Thanks.

Covering standing tasks and port visits are indeed very important Donald, though warfighting does trump both.
On a two way range a light frigate with a pop gun doesn't add very much at all.

Modern "light" light frigates (or sometimes called Corvette) carries, a 76mm gun, 12 SAM (SeaMICA), 8 SSMs, 2x 20 mm guns, chaff/flare, helo up to NH90 size (typically Dolphin), 3D radar and a hull sonar (not great) with AS torpedo tubes. Sometimes even CAPTAS-2.

A ship with only "a pop gun" (like Floreal/Holland/BAM) is in many cases classified as OPV (on its highest end) or a Corvette. Difference class from light frigate.

Even restricting ourselves to peacetime use defence diplomacy isn't restricted to hosting cocktail parties. And ssks are hardly useless for standing tasks, except wigs obviously.

Might be, but not clear for me.

For example, SSK is slow, difficult for RAS, and if they show the flag, its dead (a single fast boat can sink her, because SSK do not have even a 30mm gun). It is only after they sink the enemy, a SSK can express their existence. 1 or 0. This is the difficulty using subs for peacetime ops. But, I think you know it, so maybe I am missing something....? On the other hand, "SSK paired with a LFF (or even OPV)" may do a lot.

The RN faces many challenges but crewing is the biggest one. Giving submariners another option which doesn't include nine month deployments might in itself be positive enough for retention to be worth it.

Maybe. Sub crews need special mind-set. Not all sailers can go under sea.

Japan is course has it's own light frigate requirement, the 30dex or whatever it is being called this week.

Yes, it is wandering around for nearly 10 years. I'm also very interested in it. Some says, 8 for 4 years. It is not yet clear about their specs, so I will accumulate info.

#We are a "long" nation, so the south-west area (best use SSK) and the other region (frigates will be nice) differs a lot.

[Spinflight]

Hmm, by light frigate I assume you are talking about the Omani rivers?

It isn't armament or size that defines the difference between a frigate and an OPV. It's all in the standard of construction. Lloyds specifically classifies the differences.

A frigate could easily be a 2000t tub with a single 57mm. An OPV could be a 3000t one with all the equipment you've mentioned.

Don't assume the latter is the more capable either. The khareefs are crap, typical third world cram the weapons in and hope approach.

Hell it isn't so long ago that the Israeli saar 5s were hailed as the future of how much crap you could squeeze into a tiny hull. The intranet was full of people wondering why the RN couldn't do something similar.

Then one got itself blatted by a 60s tech asm.

The difference between a proper warship and an OPV is in survivability. Whether electronic or structural you don't appear to get much for your money in bean counting terms, though loading a decent hull with weapons doesn't make it a superior tub anyway. Lean manning actually means fewer dudes to conduct damage control, fewer engineers, less chance of repairing stuff when it goes wrong (snafu) and the dudes remaining to man the weapons are probably less proficient with them. If they work.

SSKs aren't slow, they just don't sprint. The RN doesn't potter and the world at 25kts, I doubt many exceed 15 in a blue moon when not on exercise.

Subs need skippers and I'd far rather they learned how not to beach a nuclear sub in a non nuclear sub. You might be surprised how often this happens..

Most of the modern sub designs have titchy crews. 24 isn't unheard of. Also I'm rather surprised that noone has given the diesel subs their guns back. The Germans were working on a calibre specifically for their 200 series, 40mm recoiless if memory serves.

Also where a frigate shows the flag and potentially deters a sub has the option to do either. For instance the Canadians use theirs to catch illegal fishing. An OPV around just sees the Spanish act innocent, subs actually collect usable Intel.

Don't assume that ssks are useless at ASW either. Not every potential target is an ssn and there are plenty of choke points around the world where an ssn would be overkill.

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[donald_of_tokyo]

Hmm, by light frigate I assume you are talking about the Omani rivers?

Actually, Sigma-10514 and Gowind.

It isn't armament or size that defines the difference between a frigate and an OPV.
...
The difference between a proper warship and an OPV is in survivability.

Your summary on the difference between OPV and frigate is really good one, and I totally agree. I am not proposing either Sigma 10514, Gowind nor Khareef as it is, for RN. As you said, the standard differs. This is why I say, 3300t extended Khareef, with similar armaments to 2500t Sigma 10514, as a candidate for T31. (Actually, 4000t is better).

On the other hand, calling a light frigate as "an OPV with a pop gun" is not correct. They differ a lot, as well. It is the same to calling a T26-hull ship with only one 30mm gun and two 7.62mm gatling and nothing else (even no hangar) as "a proper frigate less armed".

Hell it isn't so long ago that the Israeli saar 5s were hailed as the future of how much crap you could squeeze into a tiny hull. The intranet was full of people wondering why the RN couldn't do something similar.
Then one got itself blatted by a 60s tech asm.

I do not like those corvettes heavily armed, and never proposed it for RN. But, getting hit by ASM is unrelated to their hull standard. It is only AFTER they got hit, the hull standard matters. Got hitting is determined by the tactics, training, sensor/armaments, and the captain's personal skill. But, it could also be because of bad Operational Restriction (by politics). In this case, even a full-fat T26 will get hit.

SSKs aren't slow, they just don't sprint. The RN doesn't potter and the world at 25kts, I doubt many exceed 15 in a blue moon when not on exercise.

I understand fleet speed of RN is 15 knots. In snorkel, SSK can follow it at their top speed, I agree. But, that means at every sprint, the whole TF needs to wait for SSK to catch up. Also SSK cannot sneek around for potential detection, because they shall be focussed on just following the TF. Big restriction. SSK will be rather forward deployed if needed, I guess.

Also I'm rather surprised that noone has given the diesel subs their guns back. The Germans were working on a calibre specifically for their 200 series, 40mm recoiless if memory serves.

Interesting idea, but I think it just means SSK is not designed for surface patrol.

Also where a frigate shows the flag and potentially deters a sub has the option to do either. For instance the Canadians use theirs to catch illegal fishing. An OPV around just sees the Spanish act innocent, subs actually collect usable Intel.
Don't assume that ssks are useless at ASW either. Not every potential target is an ssn and there are plenty of choke points around the world where an ssn would be overkill.

I think you said SSK and OPV/LFF use for patrol, differs. As the same, what I am saying is, tasks good for OPV, LFF and SSK differ. It is a matter of choice. In other words, I do think LFF is better than SSK in standing tasks and long-range deployments, as well as diplomatic port visits. But, to defend the home water against "real" navy, or "spy" something un-awared, SSK is superb. No objection here.

[Spinflight]

"It is the same to calling a T26-hull ship with only one 30mm gun and two 7.62mm gatling and nothing else (even no hangar) as "a proper frigate less armed"."

That's exactly what I'm saying Donald, said underarmed t26 is indeed a proper frigate whereas the heavily armed OPVs and the like are probably not. Difficult to say without knowing the build standards used, which differ anyway between the RN and other navies.

The saar 5 for instance was blatted due to emc issues with all the high powered lectrickery packed into it's hull. It's defensive systems rendered useless.

Don't assume the underarmed t26 would be hit, theres more to this than merely missiles and guns.

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[LordJim]

Though not an expert on submarines, would having a number of SSKs available for use in home waters at least be a big improvement in hat areas ASW capability and allow our CASD to be covered whist exiting and returning to port plus the training benefits. Having say 6 would allow this as have one available for the Med or Gulf if needed. Surely there are enough designs out their for us to near as possible buy a number of the shelf, with my money being of the latest German designs, which seem to be popular with many navies. We could even work with say the Dutch, whose own SSKs are getting old and so on.