Royal Navy SSK?

[bobp]

An RN Submarine force of 6 SSKS and & 7SSNS would be an effective conventional deterrent and worth lobbying for. (add 8XT26 and 8XT31, plus the 6XT45, would give a useful surface fleet)

And how would you finance this fleet and get the increase in manpower required, you forgot the two carriers in your list.

[Spinflight]

According to the reports, they're building castings for weapons launch systems for the Ohio replacement submarines - not quite the same as "building sections".

The Ohio replacement is the Virginia, only with trident tubes added.

The Dutch partnered with the RN during the Cold War to help run the Submarine Command Course for conventional submarines, with the withdrawal of the British diesel-electric submarine fleet, the Royal Netherlands Navy took over the responsibility for Perisher courses on conventional submarines, known as the Netherlands Submarine Command Course, IIRC.

Yes, but that is training up their own conventional crews, never seen anything to indicate that we've borrowed them. I don't see how this helps our own submariner's training or reduces the training requirements place upon the £10 billion astute fleet.

And how would you finance this fleet and get the increase in manpower required, you forgot the two carriers in your list.

What would you rather have? A stretched River built to commercial standards with a few Camm added or an SSK?

Admittedly once the world famous incompetence of the MoD got it's teeth into such a project we'd end up in 2035 with them making their usual excuses, drawing their pensions and blaming everyone else.

Unfortunately we are so used to their uselessness that we assume any new project or idea would cost billions and be late.

[rec]

An RN Submarine force of 6 SSKS and & 7SSNS would be an effective conventional deterrent and worth lobbying for. (add 8XT26 and 8XT31, plus the 6XT45, would give a useful surface fleet)

And how would you finance this fleet and get the increase in manpower required, you forgot the two carriers in your list.

By including some additional costs of the national shipbuilding strategy as part of the additional industrial and infrastructure investment that I think our new government is planning for (so non Clyde shipbuilding to be seen as part of straetgic incvestment and not defence budget?). And by nor proceding with the additional two Rivers, but go for 5X Type 31 on the clyde.

[donald_of_tokyo]

An RN Submarine force of 6 SSKS and & 7SSNS would be an effective conventional deterrent and worth lobbying for. (add 8XT26 and 8XT31, plus the 6XT45, would give a useful surface fleet)

And how would you finance this fleet and get the increase in manpower required, you forgot the two carriers in your list.

By including some additional costs of the national shipbuilding strategy as part of the additional industrial and infrastructure investment that I think our new government is planning for (so non Clyde shipbuilding to be seen as part of straetgic incvestment and not defence budget?). And by nor proceding with the additional two Rivers, but go for 5X Type 31 on the clyde.

I'm sorry, but I cannot be that optimistic.

Building 6 SSK in place of 5 T31 will be possible, which means 6 T45, 8 T26ASW, 7 SSN, 6 SSK, 5 OPV and so on.

[GibMariner]

The Ohio replacement is the Virginia, only with trident tubes added.

It will have commonality with the Virginia-class, but they're most certainly not the same submarine. It still doesn't mean that Sheffield Forgemasters are "building sections".

Yes, but that is training up their own conventional crews, never seen anything to indicate that we've borrowed them. I don't see how this helps our own submariner's training or reduces the training requirements place upon the £10 billion astute fleet.

They train future conventional submarine commanding officers from most of our NATO and international allies, not just their own. We don't send our own officers to the Dutch Perisher because we wouldn't have any conventional submarines for them to command.

There are so many arguments in favor of SSKs as well as SSNS, and to have a build of SSKs in a national shipbuilding strategy.

I agree with all of your points, but I don't see how it would be possible to do.

[rec]

The only way to get a mixed fleet is to make a bid for one, with a more interventionist government, who have made the right noises about a national industrial strategy, it's worth a go. especially as the jobs created will be in the the north of England, and maybe rosyth.,

[Ron5]

An RN Submarine force of 6 SSKS and & 7SSNS would be an effective conventional deterrent and worth lobbying for. (add 8XT26 and 8XT31, plus the 6XT45, would give a useful surface fleet)

And how would you finance this fleet and get the increase in manpower required, you forgot the two carriers in your list.

By including some additional costs of the national shipbuilding strategy as part of the additional industrial and infrastructure investment that I think our new government is planning for (so non Clyde shipbuilding to be seen as part of straetgic incvestment and not defence budget?). And by nor proceding with the additional two Rivers, but go for 5X Type 31 on the clyde.

I'm sorry, but I cannot be that optimistic.

Building 6 SSK in place of 5 T31 will be possible, which means 6 T45, 8 T26ASW, 7 SSN, 6 SSK, 5 OPV and so on.

@donald-san, are you sure? The Upholders cost abut $300 million each back in 1992.

I'm pretty sure every navy in the world would take 1 SSN over 6 SSK. Certainly the USN & RN would. And have.

The arguments in this thread are flavors of the generic defense argument that it's better to have a larger number of less capable platforms. It's not. SSN's are vastly superior to SSK's. Frigates are vastly superior to OPV's. Big carriers are vastly superior to small ones etc etc etc.

[shark bait]

The arguments in this thread are flavors of the generic defense argument that it's better to have a larger number of less capable platforms. It's not. SSN's are vastly superior to SSK's. Frigates are vastly superior to OPV's. Big carriers are vastly superior to small ones etc etc etc

I would largely agree with that, but it does not course depend how you are going to use things.

Clearly for ocean going vessels SSN dominate, but staying in costal regions it appears the balance shifts.

[Spinflight]

I'm pretty sure every navy in the world would take 1 SSN over 6 SSK. Certainly the USN & RN would. And have.

Lol, an SSN might be better in many environments but it isn't 36 times better!

[ArmChairCivvy]

The Upholders cost abut $300 million each back in 1992.

That's $500m in today's money, by coincidence the same that the Germans pay for their best boats, before they gift them to Israel (who, at their own cost, then make them nuclear capable).

I bet you that starting fom scratch *this time around) won't get you a price tag in line...

[Spinflight]

I don't see why not, as I've pointed out every piece of the jigsaw other than the hull itself is in production.

If the US really is about to be booted out of Incirlik then it is easy to argue a strategic imperative to SSKs.

[marktigger]

only way i can see the RN getting SSK's is to be used for a few years then exported like the Upholders and that went so very well.

[Old RN]

If the US really is about to be booted out of Incirlik then it is easy to argue a strategic imperative to SSKs.

I do not see the connection. The RN has operated SSNs in the Med from the 1960s and while loss of Turkey to Russian influence (if it were to happen?) might be justification for increasing submarine deployment in the Med I do not seeing it relevant to the SSN/SSK debate. I have been on SSNs operating in coastal waters (friendly and otherwise) and I do not see any great advantage of SSKs.

[Spinflight]

Nukes are being moved to Romania, dependants reportedly moved and Incirlik itself appears to be being offered to the Russians....

Bit early to say for sure as it could just be danegeld which is the issue but seems as likely as not now. Which is bad.

Things have changed somewhat since the 60s, or appear to be changing.

[marktigger]

if the dynamic with Turkey is changing Cyprus could get very interesting.

[Pseudo]

Nukes are being moved to Romania, dependants reportedly moved and Incirlik itself appears to be being offered to the Russians....

These reports are apparently false.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Probably the most accurate assessment so far.

Have we heard anything at all about what was discussed during the Dunford (Chief of Joint Chiefs) visit to Turkey?

More than this
"During the attempted coup, Turkish authorities cut off electricity to the base." happenend:
- the base was also cut off by encirclement
- I wonder how the commander of the base (Turkish) was apprehended? By entering the base? What were the US military there instructed to do wrt the bombs during such an incursion (if it did happen?)? What would they be instructed to do under such circumstances?

[Spinflight]

Some weeks after the coup 7000 armed Turkish police decided to conduct a safety inspection there...

I don't know about Romania but I'd be surprised if the nukes were still there.

[Halidon]

The Romania base mentioned in the rumors is the Aegis Ashore installation. Why is that important? Because these stories originated with Russian state media who were trying to stir up **** between the US and two allies, they want to rile up Turkey by making it look like the US is bailing and they want to rile up Romania by making it look like the US is lying about what they're using their bases for. And none of that has much to do with the UK buying SSKs.

[R686]

Interesting image shedding some light on china's expansion into the indian ocean, particularily through Subs, lots of bases to support their large fleet of SSK's

Also add, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Singapore, Malaysia, Pakistan, Israel, and Iran to the there are a lot of none NATO SSK operators within the region.

Its pretty clear the sub threat is increasing, through increased numbers and proliferation of technology. What is the RN's response to this increased threat? to reduce ASW assets across the board. Is that a well measured response?

It would not matter if any country was part of NATO which the US is, out of area.

I'd expec to see P8 regularly as part of FPDA and when QECV CBG are operational we will see the odd deployment for FPDA. That about it I reckon.

[marktigger]

there is no where near enough p8's on order for that. which is why we need to invest in the frigate and destroyer fleet for the next 15-20 years and try and double our escort force.

[shark bait]

Agreed, but double does seem a little too optimistic.

P8 order is small, both the Australians and Indians will have a larger fleet, so in the context of the Indian ocean they do look better placed.

At least Australians are taking ASW seriously, in the future;

• They will have 9 ASW frigates, we will have 8
• They will have 15 MPA, we will have 9
• They will have 12 Subs, we will have 7

(That's assuming we can both stick to our current plans)

All from a country with less than half the UK's GDP. I may have to start taking my Emigration dreams more seriously.

[marktigger]

once the T26 is built T31 should be on the endangered list to be replaced by a more capable escort as they are built

[R686]

At least Australians are taking ASW seriously, in the future;

• They will have 9 ASW frigates, we will have 8
• They will have 15 MPA, we will have 9
• They will have 12 Subs, we will have 7

(That's assuming we can both stick to our current plans)

All from a country with less than half the UK's GDP. I may have to start taking my Emigration dreams more seriously.

Plus hopefully 6-7 MQ-4C Triton (BAMS)
Broad Area Martime Surveillance

Not yet ordered but was part of the mix for DCP

Also take into account we don't have a sea control capabilty, but limited sea denial capabilty.

[shark bait]

A thought on the RN's low submarine availability;

SSK's may be a way to increase submarine availability, but I'm left wondering if a better option would be to invest those resources into a double crew system.

The V boats have their port and starboard crews, why not SSN's? Sub could deploy for a year, with a new crew flown out after 6 months for example.