UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
andrew98
Member
Posts: 119
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:28
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby andrew98 » 21 Mar 2018, 13:16

Long term numbers of 12 SSN (or even better 2 batches of 8) at rate of 1 per year and 4 SSBN at 1 per 2 year.
Lifetime of 20-24 years gives a nice drumbeat for construction.

So short term 7ssn 5ssk 4ssbn works. My vote is soryu class from Japan.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1737
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby abc123 » 21 Mar 2018, 13:39

andrew98 wrote: My vote is soryu class from Japan.


Hmm, yes, Soryu's are great boats, but they are, IMHO, too close to SSNs ( and too close with a price to real SSN ), so something smaller like Type 214 or Scorpene would be better for the RN.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Jake1992
Member
Posts: 833
Joined: 28 Aug 2016, 22:35
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 21 Mar 2018, 13:48

abc123 wrote:
andrew98 wrote: My vote is soryu class from Japan.


Hmm, yes, Soryu's are great boats, but they are, IMHO, too close to SSNs ( and too close with a price to real SSN ), so something smaller like Type 214 or Scorpene would be better for the RN.


According to wiki ( yes wiki lol ) they coming in at around £400m each, that only a 1/3 of the average astute price so not close at all really.

With a range of only around 6,000nm and a tonnage half that of an astute they would be perfect for home waters / North Sea / North Atlantic

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 21 Mar 2018, 13:54

Doesn't even come close to an SSN, the only thing that does is another SSN
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
Pseudo
Member
Posts: 924
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 21:37
Location: Tuvalu

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Pseudo » 21 Mar 2018, 14:16

shark bait wrote:The only feasible option would be an import

I agree, but this thread seems pretty focused on the Type 214 being the import of choice. I'd have thought partnering with Sweden and the Netherlands on the Gotland/Walrus replacement programme might be a better option since we might get to have some input in to the design and some workshare.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1737
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby abc123 » 21 Mar 2018, 15:32

shark bait wrote:Doesn't even come close to an SSN, the only thing that does is another SSN


Well, obviously, closest out of currently existing SSKs. That's what I meant.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1737
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby abc123 » 21 Mar 2018, 15:35

Jake1992 wrote:
abc123 wrote:
andrew98 wrote: My vote is soryu class from Japan.


Hmm, yes, Soryu's are great boats, but they are, IMHO, too close to SSNs ( and too close with a price to real SSN ), so something smaller like Type 214 or Scorpene would be better for the RN.


According to wiki ( yes wiki lol ) they coming in at around £400m each, that only a 1/3 of the average astute price so not close at all really.

With a range of only around 6,000nm and a tonnage half that of an astute they would be perfect for home waters / North Sea / North Atlantic



I don't have problems with Wiki ( in 99% of cases they are as accurate as any other source ), but, I would say that 400 mil. pounds number is for Japan. Any other country would have to pay more. Maybe even much more. Because having both Type 214 and Soryu costing about the same amount of money ( but not with same capabilities )- that's a bit strange to me.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Tempest414
Member
Posts: 660
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
Location: France

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 21 Mar 2018, 16:38

Pseudo wrote:
shark bait wrote:The only feasible option would be an import

I agree, but this thread seems pretty focused on the Type 214 being the import of choice. I'd have thought partnering with Sweden and the Netherlands on the Gotland/Walrus replacement programme might be a better option since we might get to have some input in to the design and some workshare.


I still think we would be better off with a off the self buy if we get into a project the risk of mission creep and added cost will follow. I feel the type 214 offers what we would need however if a price cap was placed as part of the project then maybe it could be looked at

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 4651
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
Location: England

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby SKB » 21 Mar 2018, 18:38

SSK discussion thread here: viewtopic.php?f=41&t=383

R686
Senior Member
Posts: 1556
Joined: 28 May 2015, 02:43
Location: Australia

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby R686 » 22 Mar 2018, 22:36

shark bait wrote:Doesn't even come close to an SSN, the only thing that does is another SSN


Not 100% correct the SSN has obvious capability gains in power generation and the indiscrestion rates(hold down)and the like, but all submarines length of patrols are dictatated by food and crew well being.

But in saying that smaller long endurance submarine's can go further into the littoral's, a nuc boats will allways give off small amount of radiated noise of some description, they can reduce it but its allways there.it's not about just endurance in the big blue. It's about conops for any given nation.

Sceptical Richard
Junior Member
Posts: 1
Joined: 11 Apr 2018, 18:03
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Sceptical Richard » 12 Apr 2018, 17:34

I’ve also seen reports that on exercise with the USN off Florida coast Astute was able to ‘hold’ an American Virginia class for longer than the Americans thought possible. Really surprised everyone. I think these are top class boats. Been involved with complex programmes for 35 years. They all take about 10 to 15 years to settle down and deliver as originally intended and in most cases, they end up working far better than intended. My only disappointment is our failure to fit vertical launch tubes for TLAM. Let’s hope we actually order the seventh boat!

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby dmereifield » 12 Apr 2018, 18:38

Sceptical Richard wrote:Astute was able to ‘hold’ an American Virginia class for longer than the Americans thought possible


Could you please explain what this means, in civvy type lingo? Many thanks

Digger22
Member
Posts: 185
Joined: 27 May 2015, 16:47
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Digger22 » 12 Apr 2018, 18:48

I thought the original report mentioned 'held at such range'? So I presume this was referring to the range at which Astute was able to counter the New Mexicos manoeuvres? Of course i could be totally wrong!

Lord Jim
Senior Member
Posts: 1773
Joined: 10 Dec 2015, 02:15
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 12 Apr 2018, 20:30

I think it is referring to the fact that the Astute was able to track the Virginia class far better and at greater range than the USN thought it would be able to.

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby dmereifield » 12 Apr 2018, 20:35

Lord Jim wrote:I think it is referring to the fact that the Astute was able to track the Virginia class far better and at greater range than the USN thought it would be able to.


Thanks. More effectively than the Virginia class could track the Astute?

RetroSicotte
Site Admin
Posts: 2037
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:10
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 12 Apr 2018, 20:53

dmereifield wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I think it is referring to the fact that the Astute was able to track the Virginia class far better and at greater range than the USN thought it would be able to.


Thanks. More effectively than the Virginia class could track the Astute?


Implication was yes.

But as with anything, even the "reported" stuff never contains full details and could be "any".

matt00773
Member
Posts: 240
Joined: 01 Jun 2016, 14:31
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby matt00773 » 12 Apr 2018, 21:43

dmereifield wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I think it is referring to the fact that the Astute was able to track the Virginia class far better and at greater range than the USN thought it would be able to.


Thanks. More effectively than the Virginia class could track the Astute?


Indeed, this seems to be the case. The "holding at range" reference refers to a submarine ASW lexicon where one submarine has the ability to detect and track a target submarine at a distance without itself being detected/tracked. An interesting article about this is below:

https://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03222.htm

The actual quote from the navy commander is: "Our sonar is fantastic and I have never before experienced holding a submarine at the range we were holding USS New Mexico. The Americans were utterly taken aback, blown away with what they were seeing".

dmereifield
Senior Member
Posts: 1596
Joined: 03 Aug 2016, 20:29
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby dmereifield » 12 Apr 2018, 22:48

^^^^Thanks

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Ron5 » 12 Apr 2018, 23:20

matt00773 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
Lord Jim wrote:I think it is referring to the fact that the Astute was able to track the Virginia class far better and at greater range than the USN thought it would be able to.


Thanks. More effectively than the Virginia class could track the Astute?


Indeed, this seems to be the case. The "holding at range" reference refers to a submarine ASW lexicon where one submarine has the ability to detect and track a target submarine at a distance without itself being detected/tracked. An interesting article about this is below:

https://fas.org/spp/eprint/snf03222.htm

The actual quote from the navy commander is: "Our sonar is fantastic and I have never before experienced holding a submarine at the range we were holding USS New Mexico. The Americans were utterly taken aback, blown away with what they were seeing".


Equally glowing reports have been reported on the US side. The Astutes are pretty, well, astute :-)

Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 789
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 17 Apr 2018, 21:53

Would it be possible to make a conventional version of an Astute powered by diesel,electric,AIP or lithium rather than a reactor?

Similar to the French Shortfin Barracuda Class that is being built for the Australian Navy.

I am sure the costs would be difficult to quantify but if it was viable and costs where at a similar level to a T26 might it be worth a look?

PapaGolf
Member
Posts: 22
Joined: 13 Jun 2017, 21:43
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby PapaGolf » 17 Apr 2018, 22:53

I asked this previously and was told that submarines are designed around the propulsion system. You cant change the propulsion without changing the whole submarine.

Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 789
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 17 Apr 2018, 22:59

PapaGolf wrote:I asked this previously and was told that submarines are designed around the propulsion system. You cant change the propulsion without changing the whole submarine.
Thanks

It makes you wonder how the French are doing it then :think:

User avatar
Halidon
Member
Posts: 391
Joined: 12 May 2015, 01:34
Location: United States of America

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Halidon » 18 Apr 2018, 02:34

Poiuytrewq wrote:
PapaGolf wrote:I asked this previously and was told that submarines are designed around the propulsion system. You cant change the propulsion without changing the whole submarine.
Thanks

It makes you wonder how the French are doing it then :think:

By being clever and by good marketing. Shortfin isn't so much "A Barracuda with AIP" as it is a Barracuda that has been cut off forward of the reactor compartment and had a new, SSK-spec stern fitted. Eveb that may be generous in the end, but we'll see. Scorpène's MESMA has some interesting ideas on a more common drivetrain for nuke and non, but they seem to be moving pretty decisively away from that avenue.

TPC1975
Junior Member
Posts: 8
Joined: 27 May 2015, 09:08
Location: United Kingdom

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby TPC1975 » 18 Apr 2018, 13:42

Anyone with any insight or views as to why the RN SSN in the Eastern Med did not participate in the Syrian strikes?

Lots of press about the boat playing hide and seek with two Kilos, a Russian MPA and two frigates. Do we think the boat was detected or that the risk of detection during a TLAM firing was simply too great to participate?

User avatar
Gabriele
Senior Member
Posts: 1878
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:53
Location: Italy
Contact:

Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Postby Gabriele » 18 Apr 2018, 13:48

It might have deliberately dragged russian attention away from the USS Warner, which fired 6 TLAMs.
You might also know me as Liger30, from that great forum than MP.net was.

Arma Pacis Fulcra.
Si Vis Pacem, Para Bellum


Return to “Royal Navy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 20 guests