Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

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Jensy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Jensy »

Ok first of all, this was very much me fag packet spit-balling about the lack of SSNs in RN service. Realistically we should be grateful that the seventh Astute wasn't cancelled, or that we haven't lost a hull like France. I'd say there is little to no chance of anything being built until Dreadnought is completed and even then we'd be unbelievably lucky to get seven like-for-like Astute replacements....

So, in that vein:
Scimitar54 wrote:Not if your conventional SSN type Dreadnought ends up being 50% more likely to be detected. We just need more conventional SSN, not more SLBM tubes. :mrgreen:
A fair point but I would imagine 50% greater chance of detection than Astute is still pretty small. Would be weighed against something like 500% more firepower and much like their bomber siblings would not be deployed in shallow waters or too close to hostile shores.

To some extent I'm seeing these as underwater motherships, not so much conventional SSNs.
Defiance wrote:If 12 Trident isn't enough to put someone off you'd probably end up needing orders of magnitude more rather than multiples
The ability to convert a potential Dreanought derived SSGN to a bomber would be aimed at increasing the number of platforms, and the capability to have two operational in different oceans, rather than trying to turn the Moscow suburbs into super shiny glass. Might also permit a reflection down to three SSBN, with the redundancy of having a viable stand in class.

I agree that twelve is plenty and frankly eight MIRVs is probably enough for any strategic rather than terror purposes (at least for the foreseeable future of ABM defence). Think of the SLBM tubes more as underwater stanflex modules, rather than purely missile silos, capable of launching USVs for underwater surveillance, maybe single use UAVs and other tasks that increases the distance between the sub and any threat.

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Old RN
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Old RN »

I have a radical view that the RN should aim for a production of 12 Dreadnought SS(B)N each with only 1 four tube missile section (the current design has 3 such sections). You would then use the majority with multiple conventional TLCMs etc in each tube and two of them operating as CASD SSBNs. That way one creates a standard design with flexibility. If one of the operational "SSBN" has a problem, one re-roles one of the "SSN". If the strategic threat becomes great one could re-role more to the SSBN function.

I would suggest the 4 Trident D5 missiles with 14 (?) warheads each is still a very credible deterrent in peacetime!

This aproach would allow for the timely replacement of the Astutes

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote:would not be deployed in shallow waters or too close to hostile shores.
exactly how the Argy carrier was able to avoid the trailing SSN (and thus made it to port)
Jensy wrote:maybe single use UAVs and other tasks that increases the distance between the sub and any threat
an organic targeting asset? Sonar can tell in which direction to look, though the 'fingerprint' libraries for classification are not perfect.
- however, is of less help when firing onto land
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

Wouldn't it be nice if we could have six to eight conventional AIP submarines to compliment the Astutes. They would be more than capable of operating in the Greenland/Iceland/United Kingdom gap of off Norway for starters and be able to carry and launch any of the weapon currently carried by or planned for the SSNs and in fact be a better launch platform for many. How much do either the latest Swedish boat with the added multirole module or the latest South Korean boats cost? Could they be built at Barrow along side the Dreadnoughts, avoiding competing for the scarce nuclear plants? Wishful thinking I know but it would greatly increase our ASW capability especially in the littoral area if required, and free up the Astutes for deployments further afield.

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Ron5 »

Lord Jim wrote:Wouldn't it be nice if we could have six to eight conventional AIP submarines to compliment the Astutes. They would be more than capable of operating in the Greenland/Iceland/United Kingdom gap of off Norway for starters and be able to carry and launch any of the weapon currently carried by or planned for the SSNs and in fact be a better launch platform for many. How much do either the latest Swedish boat with the added multirole module or the latest South Korean boats cost? Could they be built at Barrow along side the Dreadnoughts, avoiding competing for the scarce nuclear plants? Wishful thinking I know but it would greatly increase our ASW capability especially in the littoral area if required, and free up the Astutes for deployments further afield.
IMHO no, not at all. Probably each would cost 50% of an Astute and deliver 5% of capability while the class in total would swallow 30% more personnel.

BTW, the future of littoral ASW is UUV. The RN is already on that path.

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

Ron's last line nails it. If the RN want a cheap non nuke sub it needs to be boat that doesn't have a crew.
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Ron5 »

shark bait wrote:If the RN want a cheap non nuke sub it needs to be boat that doesn't have a crew.
I wish I had said that! Brief and to the point.

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

Related?

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTIC ... HTML&src=0

II.2.4)
Description of the procurement:
Defence Equipment and Support Group (DE&S), part of the UK Ministry of Defence, proposes to place a contract with Lockheed Martin UK Ltd for the support of the current Sonar 2054IR system fitted within the Royal Navy Submarine Fleet.

***

Might apply to Vanguard and Dreadnought-class SSBNs as well.

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by bobp »

HMS Anson on the move.....

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

bobp wrote:HMS Anson on the move.....
Yup named https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fift ... amed-anson

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTIC ... HTML&src=0

II.2.4)
Description of the procurement:
Procurement, maintenance, support and disposal of Royal Navy Submarine Type 8800 main battery cells, associated support equipment, and spares which are required to support the fleet of Vanguard, Astute, and Trafalgar class submarines.

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

Related to all submarine classes:


https://ted.europa.eu/udl?uri=TED:NOTIC ... HTML&src=0

II.1.1)
Title attributed to the contract by the contracting authority:
Procurement of Submarine Escape and Survival Equipment

II.2.1)
Total quantity or scope:
The provision of a system to allow submariners to escape a disabled submarine from the depths of up to 300 metres and gives them an anticipated surface survival time of 24 hours.

Lord Jim
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Lord Jim »

I really hope work has already started on the next generation of SSN to immediately follow on from the Dreadnought class.

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Well, in May 2018 the Ministry of Defence agreed to delay by two years the development of the Astute-class submarine replacement (SSN(R)).

That wasn't because of the monies needed now, but rather to push 'the serious money' for it past the 10-yr horizon of the EP.
- by now, two years have passed
- will the IR say anything about the prgrm? Wait and see
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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shark bait
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

Lord Jim wrote:immediately follow on from the Dreadnought class.
I feel like the only way that will happen is making it a derivative of the SSBN's.

Could work out well that way, take the Dreadnought reactor and crew compartments and then add some new sections for attack sub stuff; like a new sonar upfront and VLS or a mission bay in the middle? I am waiting to see if they'll forge ahead and scrap the torpedo room, instead opting to store all the torpedo outside the pressure hull.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

From someone usually in the know (early), H I Sutton:

"the SSN(R) will likely resemble the Dreadnought Class except with the missile compartment removed. We are unlikely to see vertical launch tubes with the Royal Navy seeming to prefer tube launching cruise missiles (despite BAE Systems being involved in construction of VLS for the US Navy’s Virginia Class).

The bow will have the characteristic British chined form with a chin-mounted sonar. Six torpedo tubes will shoot forward past the array with the torpedo room in the lower part of the pressure hull.

Like other British submarines, construction will be single-hull but with a large casing running along the top. Expect the anechoic coating to be shaped similar to other RN boats.

The large sail for non-penetrating masts will be more tapered than the Astute with, and the tail will have X=form rudders and a pump jet propulseur almost identical to the Dreadnought."

Not only making me 'happy' with the pump jet, but as per SB, above:
"The SSN(R) will be roughly 25% larger than the Astute Class due to the newer machinery borrowed from the Dreadnought, and the need to carry more extensive torpedo defenses."

This info is from 2018 when the concept study was running at £ 20 mln/yr
... we might not be any further today
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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shark bait
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

H I Sutton has lots of good stuff over at Covert Shores.

I really hope the author is wrong about the VLS. Without VLS there pretty much has to be a conventional torpedo room which adds cost, complexity and more crew which we all know the Royal Navy can do without.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Wonder what the torp-defence systems could be that add significant size to the overall design?
- torps against torps,
- and not launched fro the main tubes?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by BlueD954 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Wonder what the torp-defence systems could be that add significant size to the overall design?
- torps against torps,
- and not launched fro the main tubes?
Re 2nd point: You mean vertical-launched tubes?

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

BlueD954 wrote: Re 2nd point: You mean vertical-launched tubes?
Well, could be. But in that speculation there will be none such.

USAF is seeing self-defence lasers distributed along to the fuselage of the future a/c. On the subs case it is the listening parts of the sonar system that are distributed... would some micro-torps (they would engage close to from they will be launched) fit in?
- a submarine version of APS, of sorts
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by SKB »

HMS Anson (S123) named
Image
(Navy Lookout) 11 December 2020
Fifth Astute-class boat HMS Anson formally named (on 11th December 2020) in a ceremony at BAE Systems in Barrow. She is Due to be rolled out and launched early next year, ahead of leaving for sea trials in 2022. Beneath the tarpaulin and ceremonial glitz, is one of the most effective attack submarines in the world.
More: https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... son-naming

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Jensy wrote: Realistically we should be grateful that the seventh Astute wasn't cancelled, or that we haven't lost a hull like France. I'd say there is little to no chance of anything being built until Dreadnought is completed
Indeed, that is the state of play.

Now we just need to know when we will get to the end point of that... as schedules have been stretched out in commissioning, likewise they will be at the other end.
- can we afford to lose any numbers; and how to plan/ invest for that (not to happen)... that is the question
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote: Realistically we should be grateful that the seventh Astute wasn't cancelled, or that we haven't lost a hull like France. I'd say there is little to no chance of anything being built until Dreadnought is completed
Indeed, that is the state of play.

Now we just need to know when we will get to the end point of that... as schedules have been stretched out in commissioning, likewise they will be at the other end.
- can we afford to lose any numbers; and how to plan/ invest for that (not to happen)... that is the question
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Jensy wrote: Realistically we should be grateful that the seventh Astute wasn't cancelled, or that we haven't lost a hull like France. I'd say there is little to no chance of anything being built until Dreadnought is completed
Indeed, that is the state of play.

Now we just need to know when we will get to the end point of that... as schedules have been stretched out in commissioning, likewise they will be at the other end.
- can we afford to lose any numbers; and how to plan/ invest for that (not to happen)... that is the question
However we could start pushing a unmanned 30 meter SSK if the money was there 12 of these working in wolfpacks of 3 controlled by a ASW frigate

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by Digger22 »

Taken to its natural conclusion you would take out the middle man, and go for autonomous ultra long range torpedoes. Call them what you like, suicide Autonomous SSK, AI torpedo.

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Re: Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Digger22 wrote: go for autonomous ultra long range torpedoes. Call them what you like
Like Poseidon? H I Sutton writes in Forbes:
"After the famous Typhoon class, this [Belgograd, we should see photos this year] will be by far the largest submarine in the world. Yet this ginormous submarine defies classification. It is at the same time a ‘special mission’ spy submarine and a carrier for the Poseidon strategic weapon.

As a spy sub it will act as a mother-ship for the famous Losharik deep-diving nuclear-powered midget submarine. This could be used for operations like interfering with undersea cables.

The Poseidon [rumoured to be in service by 2027; don't expect photos] weapon is unique. It is best described as an intercontinental, nuclear armed, autonomous torpedo. It is twice the size of a typical ballistic missile, have virtually unlimited range and be armed with a nuclear warhead. "
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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