Astute Class Attack Submarine (SSN) (RN)

[dmereifield]

https://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/91723 ... -submarine

More rumours of boat 7 potentially being delayed or cancelled

[Cooper]

Lol, you can just imagine the argument put forward by the bean counters in the treasury to RN objections to the idea..

"but the French manage with 6 SSN's,but the French manage with 6 SSN's,but the French manage with 6 SSN's,but the French manage with 6 SSN's,but the French manage with 6 SSN's,...."

Twats.

[dmereifield]

And, we are currently *managing* with 6 SSN as we speak....

[ArmChairCivvy]

And, we are currently *managing* with 6 SSN as we speak....

The 7 down to 6, back to 7 is a "managed" transition, but if we dive deeper into the unplanned re-coring cycle - giving mouth-to-mouth to the aging boats, just because we have been dragging our feet for long enough, with great indecision - then the Dreadnoughts will end up in the same place as the Astute7: in that great hall, but without a reactor core to "move" it forward, into water
- but let's look at the bright side
- it is a dry, safe place to park a somewhat started boat, to be finished by 2030

[abc123]

And, we are currently *managing* with 6 SSN as we speak....

Yeah, so let's cut it to 5, you will manage that too...

[dmereifield]

And, we are currently *managing* with 6 SSN as we speak....

Yeah, so let's cut it to 5, you will manage that too...

Calm down, its not my view, I was further developing Cooper's HMT suggested line of thought

[abc123]

And, we are currently *managing* with 6 SSN as we speak....

Yeah, so let's cut it to 5, you will manage that too...

Calm down, its not my view, I was further developing Cooper's HMT suggested line of thought

I know, I was further developing that same idea too...

[dmereifield]

Sorry, reading on the move and not paying full attention

[dmereifield]

Boat 7 safe

http://www.in-cumbria.com/news/MoD-anno ... es.twitter

[Ron5]

Boat 7 safe

http://www.in-cumbria.com/news/MoD-anno ... es.twitter

Not 100% until spending review is complete.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Dreadnought overrun (for a year ahead) had already been covered from the nuclear contingency.

The same contingency, or a separate recognition here in play (sounds like further ahead than just a budgetary year)?
"In the formal statement, Mr Bebb informed MPs: “The Ministry of Defence (MOD) has received approval in principle from Her Majesty’s Treasury (HMT) to recognise new contingent liabilities associated with the Astute Boat 7 ‘Whole Boat’ Contract.”

[CameronPerson]

The average build time of the other Astutes probably means that this boat won’t be delivered until the mid 2020s, that’s well over a decade to deliver 7 boats compared to the 8 years it took for Barrow to deliver the Trafalgars. Also with this schedule it’s also definitely past the date at which the last T boat is scheduled to decommission. This is what happens when a government leaves a decade long gap in submarine procurement then drags its heels over whether they want to pay for them. No doubt they’ll paint the order for boat 7 as a celebration and proof of the “growing Royal Navy” but it’s worth remembering that even with 7 attack submarines the RN only has the bare minimum it requires and they’re unlikely to get anymore until the Astutes are reaching the end of their lives. These boats will be worked much much harder and so will their crews, this is far from an ideal situation

[shark bait]

and there's more, boat 1 life expires before the last boomer is in the water, and we can't refuel it, creating another gap.

[abc123]

and there's more, boat 1 life expires before the last boomer is in the water, and we can't refuel it, creating another gap.

Why am I not surprised?

[ArmChairCivvy]

boat 1 life expires before the last boomer is in the water

Which makes me think boat7 will be slowed down, boomers correspondingly accelerated, boat 7 will close the said gap, and an improved Astute Class will follow, hot on the heels

[KyleG]

An Astute Mk2 might actually be the most viable option to compensate for the messy schedule IMO.

[shark bait]

How?

Can't do anything without impacting dreadnought, which is an immovable object.

[Tempest414]

If the RN want more attack subs in the next 25-30 years they will need to 1)buy them over seas or 2) build SSK's however were we would build a limited run of SSK I don't know again it would be cheaper to buy 4 type 214's off the shelf

[Jake1992]

Is there no way with investment to increase over all national capacity in building SSNs over the next 20 years odd ??

[Caribbean]

it would be cheaper to buy 4 type 214's off the shelf

You are probably correct (wouldn't the 212A be better?). I would also prefer the National Shipbuilding Strategy to be extended to include SSKs - unlikely to happen though.

[shark bait]

Sure, given enough money and some time anything can be done, but messing with Dreadnought is not a sensible thing to do.

After the Dreadnought build, as production switches to a next generation hunter killer sub perhaps then capacity could be increased, and that is 20+ years before we see any effect on the operational fleet.

The Nuke Boat fleet will remain as it is for a long time.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Why SSK?

If anything to be adding in the "under water" fleet, it shall better be UUV.

Say, 20m-long, 100t submerged, tethered floating antenna for GPS and sat-com (for multi-static ASW), with frank-array sonar, and sometimes pinging strongly. Adding TASS, it will become a self-propelled CATAS2 sonar. Enemy sub needs to either kill it, or keep far away from it. But, since it is quiet and sometimes stop pinging, enemy sub can be "surprised" with the UUV reaching unexpectedly near.

From surface and from the air, the GPS and sat-com can be detected. So, air dominance is the key in this case. I guess it can make the area very risky for enemy sub.

[Caribbean]

Why SSK?

Because the manned SSNs aren't going away any time soon, so good to have a training fleet and career progression path available (it might also reduce the number of Astutes out of action through accidents). Special forces aren't going away anytime soon, so support for covert ops insertion and recovery is still needed, along with intelligence gathering. They would also be valuable in supporting the SSBNs when exiting and returning to the UK (something that an ASW-capable variant of the T31 would also help with). I like the idea of a heavyweight, mobile sonobuoy, but there's a lot it can't do

[shark bait]

I think your right recognizing the value of a training fleet, it is the strongest argument to support the case for SSK's.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Because the manned SSNs aren't going away any time soon, so good to have a training fleet and career progression path available (it might also reduce the number of Astutes out of action through accidents). Special forces aren't going away anytime soon, so support for covert ops insertion and recovery is still needed, along with intelligence gathering. They would also be valuable in supporting the SSBNs when exiting and returning to the UK (something that an ASW-capable variant of the T31 would also help with). I like the idea of a heavyweight, mobile sonobuoy, but there's a lot it can't do

I agree SSK is not useless. My point is not there.

When UK stop building Upholders, the reason was inability to support the industry for both SSK and SSN. The situation has got worse, and the same arguments will come in. Without export, UK SSK industry will suddenly die. This is partly because modern SSK is large and expensive.

But, if "it" is small and inexpensive, "it" can survive. UUV is much smaller and cheaper than a full-fat SSK. Just using the "corner" of the SSN shipyard, it can be built in "part time". Add attachments to SSNs and UUV can be even carried "on" the SSN. Being inexpensive, UK will be able to build a dozen of them, with the cost of building, say, 2 SSKs. "A dozen" means, 1 built every 2 years and 24 years life, leading to continual build line.

Among the 12 heavy UUVs, 3 will be in Irish sea, always 2 in patrol. The 2nd 3 will be in Persian gulf, always 2 in patrol. The 3rd 3 will be with SSN, always 2 deployed. Among the final 3, 1 will be used as ASW training target at any moment, and 2 will be in deep maintenance.

Fantasy fleet, isn't it?