Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:# Also note that treasury cut no money. They payed as much as RN asked for as planned (even added 1B GBP). It is simply the development cost which ate all the hull 7-12.

So, the question must be, why RN developed its own AAW system? [1]

Also, in T45 hull 7-8 discussion, I remember it was banned in favor of CVF and T26. It is also RN's decision. Having 8 T45 and 11 T26 would be much cheaper at last. But, it was a decision made around 2010, right after the "Lehman shock". So, in some sence, understandable...[2]

I always think, RN was toooooo optimistic about economy[3] right before the Lehman shock, which made them go for 2 of 70000t large large CVFs [4], huge dream of 12 T45s and 16 T26s or so. After the shock, CVF confronted NO CUT[5].
[1] sovereign capabilities (they should be listed, one day, otherwise the money pit is bottomless). Also leads to buying a couple of specimen, so that the next gen development effort has a spring board. Not necessarily enough units to provide a credible capability (which has capacity in it as one factor).

[2] Buying votes, with a good dose of keynesian thinking blended in

[3] Not their job

[4] Would not have got them otherwise, ever. The stupidity of Power Projection as a Force for Good had been revealed, but Power Projection had become (quite rightly so) the embedded thinking on defence

[5] TSR2 effect: sunk cost too high to cancel. The current Head of NAO was writing the contract, on behalf of the then Gvmnt, to make sure it was going to stay that way... all the way
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:[1] sovereign capabilities (they should be listed, one day, otherwise the money pit is bottomless). Also leads to buying a couple of specimen, so that the next gen development effort has a spring board. Not necessarily enough units to provide a credible capability (which has capacity in it as one factor).
[2] Buying votes, with a good dose of keynesian thinking blended in
[3] Not their job
[4] Would not have got them otherwise, ever. The stupidity of Power Projection as a Force for Good had been revealed, but Power Projection had become (quite rightly so) the embedded thinking on defence
[5] TSR2 effect: sunk cost too high to cancel. The current Head of NAO was writing the contract, on behalf of the then Gvmnt, to make sure it was going to stay that way... all the way
So everything is fine, nothing to complain, may be.

By the way, on item [3], I do not think it is NOT RN's job. Military must handle risks. The risks include military risk, technical risk, and also economical risk, as well as difficulty on hiring RN man power. Relying on "a few top-tier assets" itself has a risk. Losing such assets does not always by getting attacked and sunk. Economical damage must be also taken into account, I think. (But I agree this is only my personal opinion).

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

T45 news only please.


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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Not sure one Raytheon "all hat, no cattle" salesman shooting off his mouth, qualifies as "talk intensifying".

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »


In a situation where nobody knows when or even if the propulsion of Type 45 will be fixed, such articles appear as delusional to me. :(
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by imperialman »

abc123 wrote:
In a situation where nobody knows when or even if the propulsion of Type 45 will be fixed, such articles appear as delusional to me. :(
The proposed solution, and interim measures, to the T45 issue has been well publicised, hasn't it?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Cant see any change to the vertical launch system. But the should consider what they intend to replace Harpoon with. If they fit the Mk41 VLS they will have to do away with the Gym which occupies that space at the moment.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

UK Defence Journal is mostly delusional. It's sub-tabloid in terms of objective reporting.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by imperialman »

Seems my article may be actually a bit 'old news', the last mention of 'talk intensifying' from Raytheon was last year. Will edit accordingly. :lol:
Discussions are intensifying about equipping the Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers with MK 41 Vertical Launch Systems that would allow them to carry ballistic missile defence interceptors, Rhodes said. He also noted the radar on Type 45 destroyers will be tested in various ballistic missile defence scenarios during at-sea demonstration exercises in October.
http://www.raytheon.co.uk/news/feature/ ... ction.html

Out of curiosity anyway, I understand that the Type 45 has the space in front of the current A50 silo for an additional silo, but would it be 12 or 16 cells?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Nothing more than a sales pitch. RN have moved away from the SM3 plan anyway so thr Mk41 plan is effectively dead.

Launchers would have to be a multiple of 8, but the case for fitting them is weak IMO.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

NSM has a simple & tested deck mounted launch system available in multiples of 2: 2, 4, 6, 8. Also promise of submarine launch in addition to aircraft launch.

Deck launchers would fit t45 space.

Just a small matter of money.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Yep, that is the clearest choice, even has a land attack mode. As a bonus it's derivative is also set for the F35 and P8.

Just need the money, which isn't a great deal, leaving little excuse for not adopting. Could be done in 2 years if they got their arse in gear.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Apparently it fits into the mk41 VLS too (not sure if its actually been tested and certified etc (anyone know?) so perhaps requires some development and funding...

But theoretically, with one missile system, we would obtain antiship and land attack capabilities for the T23, T31, T26, F35b and P8....with much of the platform integration costs paid for by others (for F35 and P8, at least). Sounds too good to be true. What are the drawbacks? How much do the missiles cost?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

It's not in the Mk41 yet, but we don't have any Mk41 yet so not much of an issue.

Worth noting is JSM not NSM thats being touted for Mk41 integration, small differences.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

dmereifield wrote:we would obtain antiship and land attack capabilities for the T23, T31, T26, F35b and P8....with much of the platform integration costs paid for by others (for F35 and P8, at least). Sounds too good to be true.
- something I have promoting here (and on TD before that) for a v long time
- the P8 part of it only became realistic with the 5 for Norway deal (Oz has contributed to the F35A(!) weapon bay fit trials and other early integration steps so having their P8 fleet thus equipped is a possibilty and improves the odds)
Ron5 wrote:NSM has a simple & tested deck mounted launch system available in multiples of 2: 2, 4, 6, 8. Also promise of submarine launch in addition to aircraft launch.
- as per SB comment below, also the submarine tube launch version is JSM
shark bait wrote:Worth noting is JSM not NSM thats being touted for Mk41 integration, small differences.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by marktigger »

could be done in months if there was a significant need for the capability so obviously the keepers of HM's Crystal ball are seeing that on their horizons!

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Thanks for the info. Any info available on JSM and NSM costs?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Enigmatically »

Spinflight wrote: I always wonder how much the MoD actually costs us. Not just in terms of pay and pensions but cock ups and incompetence.
Given that 99.9% of every statement you have made on here is complete trip, my MoD colleagues will take that as a compliment I am sure
Spinflight wrote: That sounds awfully low to me. Not too long ago there was 87000 of the useless bastids presiding over not that greater a force of uniformed personnel.
Oh look, there's another. Less than 57,000 civilian staff on the latest data I can see.
And the uniformed personnel are 3x for regulars, 4x that if you include reservists.

And you Spinflight, haven't got the faintest clue what they do, or how complex a web they oversee.

Is there waste is defence procurement. Of course. But no worse than any other govt dept overseeing major projects (NHS, Rail etc). And you don't even notice their massive successes (or consider them failures because of your ignorance)

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Enigmatically »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Amazing likeness of looks, save for the main radars (mast construction)
Interesting. My first thought was how very different they look- different generations.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Enigmatically wrote:And you Spinflight, haven't got the faintest clue what they do, or how complex a web they oversee.
The said call sign is making wrong or outrageous statements to provoke a reaction (and in a diligent way, to find out). There is another here who supposedly is a total layman , but constantly asking very detailed questions.
Enigmatically wrote:Interesting. My first thought was how very different they look- different generations.
Enigmatically, I obviously dont spend as much time as you with ships...what are the outer signs (except the sensors obviously moving ahead in leaps and bounds, compared to the snail pace in evolving ship designs) to tell the generations apart?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by abc123 »

imperialman wrote:
abc123 wrote:
In a situation where nobody knows when or even if the propulsion of Type 45 will be fixed, such articles appear as delusional to me. :(
The proposed solution, and interim measures, to the T45 issue has been well publicised, hasn't it?

So, when we can expect start of work on first Type 45?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Enigmatically »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Enigmatically wrote:Interesting. My first thought was how very different they look- different generations.
Enigmatically, I obviously dont spend as much time as you with ships...what are the outer signs (except the sensors obviously moving ahead in leaps and bounds, compared to the snail pace in evolving ship designs) to tell the generations apart?
Mainly the absence of "clutter" on the T45s and the lines drawn for radar reflection reduction - both of which contribute to stealth of course. Which history suggests is very important

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

Enigmatically wrote:
ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Enigmatically wrote:Interesting. My first thought was how very different they look- different generations.
Enigmatically, I obviously dont spend as much time as you with ships...what are the outer signs (except the sensors obviously moving ahead in leaps and bounds, compared to the snail pace in evolving ship designs) to tell the generations apart?
Mainly the absence of "clutter" on the T45s and the lines drawn for radar reflection reduction - both of which contribute to stealth of course. Which history suggests is very important
Is this part of the reason that Harpoon is deemed obsolete? Stealthier ships with greater situational awareness and advances in local area defence systems that turn it in to advanced target practice for a ship equipped with a decent modern radar?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

abc123 wrote:So, when we can expect start of work on first Type 45?
Already started, there have been lots of changes that have been retrofitted fleet wide over the years, they have been mostly fixing defects in the propulsion system. The power management system was built incredibly shitly, but its since been rectified, which is why we haven't seen black outs for a while.

The final modification is a significant change to the system architecture, which is suppose to be implemented by 2020.

With all of those mods, and increased training, the T45's will finally be a truly robust warship.
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