Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Gabriele]

Bit of a mystery tbh , it seems forces Tv are reporting today that HMS Dauntless was taking part in the exercise but according to the Royal Navy hms Dauntless is still along side in Portsmouth , plus there's a nice video covering the ships involved in the bmd exercise on the link below , it only shows 7 ships instead of the 8 reportedly taking part no type 45 to be seen , and your right gab / shark it's a Italian navy horizon class in the picture ,

http://forces.tv/22099952

She's most definitely not in Portsmouth. On the 19, she was photographed right outside Lamlash, and before that she was seen around Faslane. She was up in Scotland for JW and ASD, for sure, unless at least two ship spotters up north have posted photos of her with wrong dates... the question is whether she had trouble that kept her out of at least the second exercise. She is not mentioned in any news release nor seen in the images.

The ships seen in the video are (in no particular order):

USS Ross
USS The Sullivan
Andrea Doria (Italy)
De Zeven Provincen (Netherlands)
Almirante Juan de Borbón (Spain)
Fridtjof Nansen (Norway)
Halifax (Canada)

[Lugzy]

@Gab , thanks for the additional info , it does seem strange that there are no reports of a type 45 taking part , considering these exercises where arranged back in early 2014 , and where set up to coincide With the RN TECC programs timetable for field testing which was set for late 2015.

it just doesn't make sense a type 45 wasn't there unless there was a problem , maybe more info might be released in the coming days/weeks but for now the only reported uk involvement I can find in these exercises is the participation of RAF aircraft .

[jimthelad]

oops should have zoomed the picture!!

[Tony Williams]

Bit of a mystery tbh , it seems forces Tv are reporting today that HMS Dauntless was taking part in the exercise but according to the Royal Navy hms Dauntless is still along side in Portsmouth

Just goes to show the amazing range of the T45's sensors and weapons systems - they don't even have to leave port to use them!

[ArmChairCivvy]

That kind of statement was made seriously (must have been Daily Mail then?) about Astute's sensors: on leaving port, could pinpoint a vessel on the other side of the Pond.

And where do they get all the flying tennis balls from; the same phrase as used for T45's radar was recently repeated for some other radar's testing results ( for the distance for detection).

[seaspear]

I understood from the article the tests related to ballistic missiles certainly there were reports the type 45 had been involved in trials for this but not if this upgrade had been introduced for the type 45 .

[ArmChairCivvy]

Good point by seaspear, but the best way to define capability gaps would be to go along, do the best your kit can achieve, and then compare to the best of class.
- a controlled experiment, so to say?

Even if the Dutch Navy has proved the compatibility of their (version of the same) radar (that we put on the T45s) with a US ABM-capable missile, I seem to have the recollection that it was done with a shore-based radar.

http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/ray ... ard-07088/

[Pseudo]

Maybe they deployed Portsdown Hill.

[Lugzy]

I understood from the article the tests related to ballistic missiles certainly there were reports the type 45 had been involved in trials for this but not if this upgrade had been introduced for the type 45 .

I get what your saying but wasn't that what TECC was all about ? To follow on from the success of HMS Daring using the Sampson E/R radar during ASAT in 2013 , and to achieve 2 main aims, 1 ) was to be able to use the Sampson radar for both AAW and BMD at the same time , (during ASAT hms daring had to switch between the two ) , the 2nd aim was to achieve interoperability as the bmd system software uses a slightly different message set in the link 16 datalink , these advancements were to be completed and tested in mid to late 2015 during an arranged bmd exercise involving other allied countries which I take to be the large bmd exercise of the coast of Scotland a few days ago , unless there's another planned ? ,

The point being a type 45 hms dauntless was said to be taking part which adds credibility to this exercise being the one TECC was to be showcased in , as gab pointed out HMS Dauntless was spotted near there around the time of the exercise , but there are no actual confirmed reports of her being there that I can find , and the RN wouldn't miss a photo opportunity of this importance , plus from all the accounts I've read from US and other sources who were taking part there's not one mention of a Type 45 being involved which does seem strange tbh . Could be a case of just missed opportunity or a problem or delay in achieving operational lvl for the TECC program or maybe a problem with the vessel it self I don't know ,

Considering the UKs BMD research weighs heavily on the shoulders of the Samspon radar , with 6 of the 7 made are on type 45s , it's still seems a mystery in my opinion why one wasn't reported to be there .

[ArmChairCivvy]

Happy ending, though: The Allies shot the ballistic missile down, and Scotland is safe.

[Lugzy]

From what I can gather there's another week or so to go yet of planned exercises , so I'm guessing there's still time for a type 45 to show up .

[arfah]

............

[ArmChairCivvy]

Err... I thought everyone was ajour; hence did not include the link:

http://www.stripes.com/news/navy-ship-d ... e-1.374234

The site name tells us which navy's ship stepped in (off the coast of Scotland)... but I'll try to practise humour with sarcasm more as it does easily backfire!

[desertswo]

Bit of a mystery tbh , it seems forces Tv are reporting today that HMS Dauntless was taking part in the exercise but according to the Royal Navy hms Dauntless is still along side in Portsmouth , plus there's a nice video covering the ships involved in the bmd exercise on the link below , it only shows 7 ships instead of the 8 reportedly taking part no type 45 to be seen , and your right gab / shark it's a Italian navy horizon class in the picture ,

http://forces.tv/22099952

She's most definitely not in Portsmouth. On the 19, she was photographed right outside Lamlash, and before that she was seen around Faslane. She was up in Scotland for JW and ASD, for sure, unless at least two ship spotters up north have posted photos of her with wrong dates... the question is whether she had trouble that kept her out of at least the second exercise. She is not mentioned in any news release nor seen in the images.

The ships seen in the video are (in no particular order):

USS Ross
USS The Sullivan
Andrea Doria (Italy)
De Zeven Provincen (Netherlands)
Almirante Juan de Borbón (Spain)
Fridtjof Nansen (Norway)
Halifax (Canada)

Uh, your pardon, it's THE SULLIVANS. Named for the five Sullivan brothers who were KIA aboard USS Juneau (CL 54) at Guadalcanal. Since that day it takes a freaking papal dispensation and then some for family members to serve in the same unit. No CACO ever wants to make that call again.

[The Armchair Soldier]

HMS Defender has shown solidarity with the French Air Force by holding a joint training exercise in the Gulf.

Over the course of several hours, the Portsmouth based warship took part in complex air defence training with five Mirage 2000 fighter jets.

The training demonstrated the strong partnership that exists between the allied nations and culminated in an impressive visual show of unity as the six aircraft formed up to fly past the British destroyer.

[SKB]

Any chance of some extra T45's too in SDSR?

[Pseudo]

Any chance of some extra T45's too in SDSR?

No, but the government recognises the need for more air defence destroyers so will be commissioning a study in to a AAW variant of the Type 26 that in addition to the four ASW and two general purpose variants will bring the total number of Type 26's to a world beating y pant wetting eight.

[SKB]

T45 HMS Duncan returned home to Portsmouth on Friday 27 November after a seven month long deployment to the Gulf.
http://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defenc ... -1-7090006

[Tony Williams]

I'm looking for some help, guys, concerning the T45's 30mm gun armament. There are two single mountings from the MSI Seahawk range - but exactly which mounting and which guns?

For the last quarter of a century the RN has been using the manned DS30B mounting fitted with an Oerlikon KCB gun, firing 30x170 ammo. A few years ago the T23's started to be refitted with the ASCG (Automated Small Calibre Gun), also known as the DS30M Mark 2 RWS, which differs in two major respects: the mounting is unmanned, being remotely controlled from within the ship; and it is fitted with an Orbital ATK MK44 Chain Gun firing 30x173 ammo (not interchangeable with the 30x170, but compatible with Goalkeeper's ammo).

Some reputable sources state that the T45 are equipped with the ASCG, but all state that it has the Oerlikon KCB gun, not the MK44. I recall reading somewhere that both are correct: the mounting is the remotely-controlled ASCG, but the old Oerlikon gun is fitted to it, presumably as a cost-saving measure, perhaps only temporarily?

Can anyone confirm or correct this with hard information?

[Ron5]

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-belfas ... 87376.html

From July 2014. Helpful?

[Tony Williams]

Yes, thanks. Pic of HMS Sutherland below, taken at DSEi in 2013.

Apart from the different barrel shroud and the exposed twin ammo feed of the MK44 rather than the enclosed single feed of the KCB, these look pretty well identical.

So it seems to be correct that the T45 has the ASCG but with the Oerlikon instead of the MK44.

[Tony Williams]

Just an afterthought: comparing both of the ASCG mountings (T23 and T45) with the MSI product line, it looks as if the backward-sloping box on the left of the mounting (when standing in front of it) is the seating position for manual control. So the RN seems to have gone for a belt-and-braces approach: both remote and local control.

The only disadvantage is that the seating position is where the missile pod for LMM or a SAM of some kind goes.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Hi Tony,

I understand that your interest is in the very latest evolution, but that mount seems to be an "evergreen", having had Rarden, Mauser, Oerlikon and as the latest, the Bushmaster on it. Two different contributors on the secretprojects board:

"I'm not sure if it was here or on another forum, but I remember a discussion of a Rarden based remote control mounting proposed for the RN. Thanks to an old issue of the gleefully entitled "War Machine" (The 1980's, eh?) I have a few details.

"LS30R"
• Laurence Scott Defence Systems mounting
• RARDE 30mm Rarden automatic cannon
• Power driven and LOS stabilised
• Tests carried out by RN at sea on trials FF HMS Londonderry and on land at the Fraser Gunnery Range
• Hit a 2m2 target 80% of the time at ranges between 1000-1300m
• HE, APSE and APDS rounds
• LS30R was to replace 20mm and 40mm weapons, initially starting on OPVs
• Basic mounting can be used with 30mm Oerlikon KCB and Mauser Model F (LS30B and LS30F)
• -20 to +70 degrees elevation
• 6-22 rounds on-mount

This was the weapon DJ Brown used on a lot of his independent concept designs.

- RP1


Hm came accross this forum just generally browsing through google on some related stuff and this came up, cant add much to most of your discussions but I can certainly shed some light on this. The LS30R died literally dead no more it never went past the prototype. However no before it spawned a son the LS30B this then changed its name by deed poll to the DS30B just prior to entering service with the RN. Mainly down to a company name change as laurence Scott Defence systems is now MSI-Defence Systems ltd www.msi-dsl.com.

The latter part(in italics) has been contributed by Spec.

[Tony Williams]

Yes, the LS/MSI mounting seems to be modular, in that you can have it manned or remotely controlled, with various guns fitted and the option of adding missiles (but possibly not if the manned option is retained).

It's beginning to look as if it's quite hard to see the difference between the old DS30B and the new DS30M Mark 2 with the Oerlikon gun as fitted to the T45.

A small point of interest: the (steel cased) 30x170 Oerlikon ammo works in the Rarden AFV gun (whose ammo is brass-cased), and vice versa. The Rarden ammo was in fact developed from the Oerlikon round. They are not officially qualified as interoperable but I gather that they work OK.

Second small point: the MK44 gun as used in the refitted T23 uses the same basic 30x173 ammo as Goalkeeper, although the type of projectile might be different.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Second small point: the MK44 gun as used in the refitted T23 uses the same basic 30x173 ammo as Goalkeeper, although the type of projectile might be different.

It is about now that Goalkeeper is due to be out of service. It is hard to believe that it wouldn't be an ideal weapon (as the one and only) on the Albions, even Bays because of its better reach compared to the in-service alternatives
- the above ammo compatibility, combined with roughly the same OSD would add to the argument?
- deck penetration has been an issue on other classes, but space is the one thing our amphibs are not short of