Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[handal]

As this just not powerfull/flexible enough ( and a bloody horrible design to even look at ) it begs a question for me.

Why not deconstruct the problem by going back to a codag/codog and/or electric system, leaving this system in place while adding the necessary links ? The gear box's/diffs,etc have been made before, soo would they fit or just be too damn big ?

I'm only aware of how big they are from when ships have broken them at sea; but even then they have been repaired..ofc they already had the space in those designs..

[Ron5]

Of course not.

And thinking that putting some new technology array on a noisy hull like the AB's will suddenly make them world class is baloney.

By the way, it's the large investment in SSN's and MPA's by the US, that enables ASW to be a lower priority for the surface combatants. Most folks know the best ASW is another sub.

I have doubts about ASROC, on a Type 26, you'll be detecting the submarine well out of its current range. A longer ranged, winged ASROC would give the target time to get out of the engagement envelope of the Mk 54. There's a reason the RN got out of the Ikara business. Far best to send a Merlin with dipping sonar to fix & destroy the target.

One of the issues with the original ASROC (unguided) was that by the time the firing solution, flight time, descent and torpedo search operation had commenced the target could easily be out of range of the early MK46's, or make the shot very marginal at best. That's why the UK went with Ikara, the Torp would drop exactly where required. Course there was also the possibility that the ASROC was dropping a nuc...... But a guided ASROC, or a rocket boosted winged Mk54 or Stingray removes those issues, essentially it is a modern Ikara. And if we're getting Poseidon we're getting the glide kits as well (it will be interesting to see if Stingray is ever integrated to a glide kit) But all in all it is better to use a Merlin. I would hope the UK does the smart thing and does not get ASROC, leave the Mk41's for TLAM and LRASM and get a wing kit on Stingray so the P-8's have something to drop, and I suspect the Norwegians will be getting P-8 in due course, and they're a keen Stingray user.

Thumbs up!

The RN made a conscious decision to replace Ikara with helicopters on its new ASW frigates. Wasn't a whim.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I have doubts about ASROC, on a Type 26, you'll be detecting the submarine well out of its current range. A longer ranged, winged ASROC would give the target time to get out of the engagement envelope of the Mk 54. There's a reason the RN got out of the Ikara business. Far best to send a Merlin with dipping sonar to fix & destroy the target.

ASW Helicopter is the first option for "torpedo carrying", I agree. However, ASROC has it's own merit = reaction time. As you say, if the SSK is 20-30 nm away, ASROC may NOT be able to reach. But, as you stated, SSK is getting more silent, and also sonar stelth is there. So, there is not small possibility RN's T26 will fined a SSK within 5-10 nm or so.

In this case, (new generation) ASROC can be fired within 10seconds, needs only 30-40s to fly. If super sonic (such as Japanese type07 ASROC), only 15s or so.
For Helicopter how long do you need? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

So, if you are "optimistic" about the detection range, Helicopter only can work. But, I think there is also "not small possibility" of detecting SSK in short range.

Thus, for me, ASROC is a good option ("better" to have), although not "must". In case of Ikara, it takes huge area/weight. You need to sacrifice a lot to carry it. In T26, you have Mk.41 VLS. And ASROC is a "close-in ASW weapon", and not expected to fire many of them. So, if possible, carrying 4 ASROC within the 24 cells will be good enough, for example. But, all matter comes to cost/logistics, I agree.

[marktigger]

for flexibility Donald you want Merlin. Fielding ASROC would waste resources (If there is any) that would be better invested in Type26/31 and More Merlins

[donald_of_tokyo]

for flexibility Donald you want Merlin. Fielding ASROC would waste resources (If there is any) that would be better invested in Type26/31 and More Merlins

I am not against your point. I just said, there are reasons some navies do have ASROC. As I said, ASROC and Merlin is something different. ASROC is rather the replacement for ship-launched stingrey (which is already omitted, presumably because of its too short range).

For me, it is like having 20mm CIWS IN ADDITION TO SeaCeptor + 30mm gun combi.

[marktigger]

interesting that with the Merlin & wildcat hanger displays at yeovilton. the weapons on the Helicopter displays were

.50 M3
LMM
Sea Venom
MU90

[shark bait]

ASROC is rather the replacement for ship-launched stingrey

Agreed, I would like to see both there. I guess the advantage of VL is it should be simple to add these over time.

[S M H]

When the destroyers have there diesel generator set replacement/ additional set it would be prudent to spend some of the procurement contingency money if not spent on allocated budget on removing the gym replacing it with silos. Therefore giving the destroyer added capability especially with the impending out of service date for harpoon.

[seaspear]

Does the same argument against ASROC hold for ship launched torpedo systems

[donald_of_tokyo]

Is Harpoon going to be really disbanded? Then, I guess the only (?) solution will be to,
- increase the Harpoon life till, say, 2022 or so
- adopt LRASM on both canister (T23 and T45) and VL (T26) versions.

If you do the similar stuff with NSM/JSM, canistered one is NSM, and VL is JSM, which are sisters, but not the same missile. One good thing of NSM is the fact that it is already there.

[Timmymagic]

Does the same argument against ASROC hold for ship launched torpedo systems

One of the arguments against ship launched ASW Torps is that if it's that close you're already toast. There has been some rumblings (not in the RN) about adding heavyweight Torps to ships. Primarily to address the range, speed and warhead size of lightweight ASW torps. Whilst it would be lovely to see some Spearfish on a T26 I can't help feeling that it's missing the point. A guided rocket launched Torp (a modern ASROC) and effective hardkill anti torp system (in addition to the RN's excellent soft kill system) would make a lot more sense on T26.

[Timmymagic]

Is Harpoon going to be really disbanded? Then, I guess the only (?) solution will be to,
- increase the Harpoon life till, say, 2022 or so
- adopt LRASM on both canister (T23 and T45) and VL (T26) versions.

If you do the similar stuff with NSM/JSM, canistered one is NSM, and VL is JSM, which are sisters, but not the same missile. One good thing of NSM is the fact that it is already there.

For me NSM/JSM and LRASM is an interesting conundrum for the RN, but one with an easy answer. With the Harpoon OSD coming up a decision will need to be made at some point. For me the fact that JSM doesn't fit in the F-35B internally means that it's one advantage over LRASM is gone. It fits in between the Sea Venom and LRASM in range and warhead. You need the smaller missile for precision strike in congested littoral areas, and a larger missile for when you absolutely, positively have to kill something big. After that the fact that LRASM can do double duty as Anti Ship and Land Attack, will be carried eventually by F-35 and Poseidon, has longer range and much, much larger warhead, plus Mk.41 vertical launch and crucially arrives at a time when Tomahawk production is slated to stop, leaving the RN with 70 sub-launched Tomahawk for land attack. Get Storm Shadow integrated on Typhoon as planned and our land attack requirement is sorted for subs, surface escorts, land based and naval air and our littoral and deep ocean ASuW needs done at the same time.

[donald_of_tokyo]

One of the arguments against ship launched ASW Torps is that if it's that close you're already toast.

But with Ship Torpedo Defense System, there a (small?) possibility that ship can survive. In that case, maybe ship-launched torpedo may have some meaning. On the other hand, ASROC is fast and has "middle" range, so you have a good chance to kill enemy sub before you are killed. Torpedo without mother ship's guidance may be a bit easier to get rid of.

[Ron5]

I have doubts about ASROC, on a Type 26, you'll be detecting the submarine well out of its current range. A longer ranged, winged ASROC would give the target time to get out of the engagement envelope of the Mk 54. There's a reason the RN got out of the Ikara business. Far best to send a Merlin with dipping sonar to fix & destroy the target.

ASW Helicopter is the first option for "torpedo carrying", I agree. However, ASROC has it's own merit = reaction time. As you say, if the SSK is 20-30 nm away, ASROC may NOT be able to reach. But, as you stated, SSK is getting more silent, and also sonar stelth is there. So, there is not small possibility RN's T26 will fined a SSK within 5-10 nm or so.

In this case, (new generation) ASROC can be fired within 10seconds, needs only 30-40s to fly. If super sonic (such as Japanese type07 ASROC), only 15s or so.
For Helicopter how long do you need? 5 minutes? 10 minutes?

So, if you are "optimistic" about the detection range, Helicopter only can work. But, I think there is also "not small possibility" of detecting SSK in short range.

Thus, for me, ASROC is a good option ("better" to have), although not "must". In case of Ikara, it takes huge area/weight. You need to sacrifice a lot to carry it. In T26, you have Mk.41 VLS. And ASROC is a "close-in ASW weapon", and not expected to fire many of them. So, if possible, carrying 4 ASROC within the 24 cells will be good enough, for example. But, all matter comes to cost/logistics, I agree.

Very sensible although I still have doubts whether the T26 will actually emerge with Mk 41 installed.

[Ron5]

When the destroyers have there diesel generator set replacement/ additional set it would be prudent to spend some of the procurement contingency money if not spent on allocated budget on removing the gym replacing it with silos. Therefore giving the destroyer added capability especially with the impending out of service date for harpoon.

Don't hold your breath

[Ron5]

Is Harpoon going to be really disbanded? Then, I guess the only (?) solution will be to,
- increase the Harpoon life till, say, 2022 or so
- adopt LRASM on both canister (T23 and T45) and VL (T26) versions.

If you do the similar stuff with NSM/JSM, canistered one is NSM, and VL is JSM, which are sisters, but not the same missile. One good thing of NSM is the fact that it is already there.

You're assuming LRASM will be selected by the USN. That's not a given

[Ron5]

One of the arguments against ship launched ASW Torps is that if it's that close you're already toast.

But with Ship Torpedo Defense System, there a (small?) possibility that ship can survive. In that case, maybe ship-launched torpedo may have some meaning. On the other hand, ASROC is fast and has "middle" range, so you have a good chance to kill enemy sub before you are killed. Torpedo without mother ship's guidance may be a bit easier to get rid of.

I think you have STDS or ship mounted torpedo's. Not both. I don't think they play well together.

[hovematlot]

When I served on HMS Iron Duke we were fitted with SSTD (ST2170) and MTLS. They were complementary to each other.

[Ron5]

Then I thought wrong. Thanks for the info.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Three points to add for ASROC.

- Merlin cannot fly 24/7 a week. ASROC can.
- ASROC cannot deploy sonar/sonobuoy, Merlin can.
Thus, these two assets are completely of different type.

And at last,
- ASROC is cheap. Arming 4 ASROCs in 8 T26s will cost less than 2 Merlin, I guess. (Note here I assumed Mk.41 VLS is already there).

Because it is different, comparing Merlin to ASROC is not good. In short, ASROC is ASROC.

I prefer to compare it with 20mm CIWS. With SeaCeptor/ASTAR, why you need 20mm CIWS? With Merlin/P-8A, why you need ASROC? For me, this is a bit similar question.

[marktigger]

merlin is reuseable ASROC isn't it carried 4 torpedos to ASROC's 1, Merlin can hunt independently ASROC needs a ship.

[The Armchair Soldier]

HMS Daring fires Sea Venom:

[seaspear]

A Merlin or any rotary response will only usually be able to respond to a submarine after its detected by the ships sonar ,obviously the time for a rotary response can vary ,if a submarine was aware that the escort had a very quick respons it may be deterred ,a rotary response may be first line but pilots should not be on call 24/7 and there should be a roster of flying hours for crew safety

[Ron5]

I see HMS Dragon is out of a long refit. Am I correct that she didn't have any new diesel generators fitted?

In other words, will she be back in refit again soon?

PS really like the red outline Dragon on the bow, the MoD should do more of that: outline of a diamond on Diamond, sporran on Duncan, sleeping man on Westminster, etc.

[SKB]

HMS Dragon's Dragons!

^ Original dragons from launch, 17th November 2008


^ HMS Dragon arrives in Portsmouth for the first time in September 2011. Note the Blue Ensign at the stern.


HMS Dragon in Portsmouth in 2013 after her first operational tour. Her original dragons have worn off.


HMS Dragon near Penarth Pier, enroute to Cardiff for a visit in 2014. No remaining trace of the bow dragons on the ship.


^ The Dragon's dragons returned in May 2016. The tail is a little different, hidden between its wings and the dragon is more scaly than before.


^ Both sides confirmed.


^ Close up

(Wales Online, 18th May 2016)

The transfers were originally fitted in the build phase and had become synonymous with the ship but after entering dry dock for a refit last summer, which included repainting the grey hull, the dragons had to be removed.

HMS Dragon is the only ship in the Royal Navy to have such adornments on its bows and, in 2014, there was some doubt as to whether the dragons could be replaced following the refit.

The original red dragons had been privately funded and so an appeal was made by the ship to its supporters in Cardiff and the British Warships Association (BWA) , which is headquartered in Wales, immediately responded.

Within weeks of the appeal launch, BWA members and the people of Cardiff had pledged the funds and the financial commitment was secured.

Earlier this month the dragons were unveiled in Portsmouth to those who had helped the fundraising and aboard the ship. Each donor was presented with a certificate of contribution by HMS Dragon’s Commanding Officer, Captain Craig Wood RN.

In his speech, the CO Captain Wood, said: “We are so very grateful to all those who contributed to the appeal. Our dragons mean so much to us.

“We will take good care of them and wear them with great pride.”

During the ceremony, glasses were raised to the new dragons and fittingly the toast was made with Penderyn’s Dragon Myth Welsh Whisky .