Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by bobp »

A few weeks ago they were blaming the weather in the gulf, now its home waters as well. Hope they resolve the problem we have precious few ships as it is.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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Type 45 Destroyers:Written question - 40706

Asked by Andrew Rosindell
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will eliminate the cost of adapting Type 45 destroyers to operate in warm waters.
Answered by: Mr Philip Dunne
I refer the hon. Member to the answer given by my noble Friend the Minister of State for Defence, Earl Howe to the noble Lord, Lord Campbell of Pittenweem in the House of Lords to Question HL5630 on 8 February 2016. The Type 45 Destroyers were designed for world-wide operations, from sub-Arctic to extreme tropical environments and continue to operate effectively in the Persian Gulf and South Atlantic at all times of the year.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... -15/40706/

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by Ron5 »

The Secretary of State for Defence is a big fat liar. According to Rolls-Royce anyway (who should know) because their rep said the T45's WR21 requirement did not include the ability to opearte at Persian Gulf temperatures. So no, the T45 was not specified for world wide ops.

But a UK politician lying, hardly seems likely does it?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by seaspear »

It will be up to R.R to produce the documents stipulating the operating requirements for the destroyer , any document like that will have names on that any enquiry will invite for clarification .

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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Type 45 Destroyers:Written question - 40876

Asked by Andrew Rosindell
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, if he will outline the original intended purpose of the Type 45 destroyers, and the regions of the world where his Department originally intended to deploy those destroyers once completed.
Answered by: Mr Philip Dunne
The Type 45 Destroyers are designed for world-wide operations, from sub-Arctic to extreme tropical environments, and continue to operate effectively in various regions, from the Gulf and the South Atlantic all year round. The Type 45 is not only a world class anti-air warfare destroyer; it is also a multi-role, general purpose platform, able to contribute effectively to a range of world-wide maritime, joint and Coalition operations.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... -20/40876/

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by bobp »

Really Mr Dunne?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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One day someone will have to attach an actual meaning to "general purpose", so it won't be used anymore as a convenient but ultimately vague and useless catch-all adjective to use to sell things as better than they actually are.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by S M H »

Gabriele wrote:One day someone will have to attach an actual meaning to "general purpose", so it won't be used anymore as a convenient but ultimately vague and useless catch-all adjective to use to sell things as better than they actually are.
The hull if fitted with all reserved space as planned not stripped back for budgetary reasons would have been a G.P. destroyer. The political snake medicine sellers only telling the parts of the procurement requirement that he thinks we want to know. While being economical with the procurement amended requirements.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by GibMariner »

HMS Defender visited Split, Croatia last week. Italy & the Balearics before going home: http://www.total-croatia-news.com/item/ ... -off-split

Image



Replacement doesn't seem to have left the UK yet.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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HMS Defender returns from Middle East deployment
HMS Defender returns home to Portsmouth on Friday (July 8) following her nine-month deployment to the Middle East primarily working with American and French Carrier strike groups as part of on-going operations against Daesh in Iraq and Syria.

During her 263 days away from the UK, Defender has visited 19 ports in 11 countries. She has participated in two major international maritime exercises, represented the UK at the International Indian Fleet review, and conducted numerous boarding operations resulting in one major drugs bust, while carrying out her primary role providing air command and control support to two international carrier strike groups in the Gulf.

Last month while working on counter narcotics and counter terrorist operations the Type 45 destroyer intercepted a suspect fishing dhow off the south coast of Oman.

After the dhow was secured by a Royal Marines boarding team with the support of HMS Defender's Lynx helicopter, a Navy search team seized over a tonne of hashish being trafficked across the Indian Ocean.

The ship has travelled 47,538 nautical miles, the equivalent of going more than twice around the world. To cover this distance, she has used 10,551,000 litres of fuel, enough to fill 4.2 Olympic-size swimming pools.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... deployment

Still no replacement announced.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by SKB »

When they were choosing the 'D' names for this class, did they not consider that "Dreadnought" might be a more fearsome name than say, "Duncan" ?
Can we have a seventh T45 pleeeeease?! :lol:

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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GibMariner wrote:HMS Defender returns from Middle East deployment
HMS Defender returns home to Portsmouth on Friday (July 8) following her nine-month deployment to the Middle East primarily working with American and French Carrier strike groups as part of on-going operations against Daesh in Iraq and Syria.

During her 263 days away from the UK, Defender has visited 19 ports in 11 countries. She has participated in two major international maritime exercises, represented the UK at the International Indian Fleet review, and conducted numerous boarding operations resulting in one major drugs bust, while carrying out her primary role providing air command and control support to two international carrier strike groups in the Gulf.

Last month while working on counter narcotics and counter terrorist operations the Type 45 destroyer intercepted a suspect fishing dhow off the south coast of Oman.

After the dhow was secured by a Royal Marines boarding team with the support of HMS Defender's Lynx helicopter, a Navy search team seized over a tonne of hashish being trafficked across the Indian Ocean.

The ship has travelled 47,538 nautical miles, the equivalent of going more than twice around the world. To cover this distance, she has used 10,551,000 litres of fuel, enough to fill 4.2 Olympic-size swimming pools.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... deployment

Still no replacement announced.
I would have thought that letting the weed get through to the terrorists would be a better idea than intercepting it.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by shotleylad »

According to the RN website HMS Daring will deploy for 9 months later on this year

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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shotleylad wrote:According to the RN website HMS Daring will deploy for 9 months later on this year
Indeed it does, I'd missed that one :oops: Thanks!
As for the future, well after a spring of training and exercises, Daring is due to head out on her third deployment – a nine-month stint east of Suez – in the latter half of 2016.
http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... h-birthday

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by GibMariner »

HMS Daring in Channel Island waters tomorrow
HMS Daring will be in Channel Island waters tomorrow.

The naval warship weighs 8,000 tonnes, is 152 metres long and and will be visible off the coast of Guernsey.
http://www.itv.com/news/channel/update/ ... -tomorrow/

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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Gabriele wrote:One day someone will have to attach an actual meaning to "general purpose", so it won't be used anymore as a convenient but ultimately vague and useless catch-all adjective to use to sell things as better than they actually are.
This is what I have always followed:

Multi-mission warship - E.g Arleigh Burke class destroyer, with multiple specialised high-end capabilities (AAW, ASW & Land Attack)
Single-mission warship - E.g Type 45 Destroyer, with a single specialised high-end capability (AAW)
General purpose warship - E.g La Fayette class frigate, with no specialised high-end capability whatsoever.

To be clear, every multi-mission or single-mission warship can reach down and perform general purpose tasks. But a general purpose warship can never reach up. They have little war-fighting utility, except for adding mass to a task force, performing a goalkeeper role, providing NGFS, or dying bravely.

Ultimately, "general purpose" is marketing bull, in the hope that people will mistake "general purpose" as a synonym for "multi-mission".
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by WhitestElephant »

SKB wrote:When they were choosing the 'D' names for this class, did they not consider that "Dreadnought" might be a more fearsome name than say, "Duncan" ?
Can we have a seventh T45 pleeeeease?! :lol:
Nah... rename the new carriers HMS Ark Royal and HMS Dreadnought
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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WhitestElephant wrote:This is what I have always followed:

Multi-mission warship - E.g Arleigh Burke class destroyer, with multiple specialised high-end capabilities (AAW, ASW & ASuW)
Single-mission warship - E.g Type 45 Destroyer, with a single specialised high-end capability (AAW)
General purpose warship - E.g La Fayette class frigate, with no specialised high-end capability whatsoever.
I think you're being a bit generous with the Arleigh Burke. It has a high end AAW capability, BMD capability (some of them) and land attack capability.

But ASW and ASuW?
A good portion of the Arleigh Burkes have no towed arrays, those that do have a 25 year old AN/SQR-19 set that isn't much cop, an ex-RN Submariner PWO friend of mine, didn't rate them as much as Sonar 2031. They're also not that quiet, certainly no where near a T23. Same with ASuW. You could say a few Russian, Taiwanese or South Korean ships are high end ASuW, but 8 Harpoons doesn't really cut it anymore. A T45 with Harpoons fitted and a Wildcat on the back with Sea Skua (let alone Sea Venom and Martlet) would have more ASuW weaponry, and crucially more usable weaponry. When LRASM comes along then it gets better for the Arleigh Burke, but thats a few years away yet, with only limited numbers being brought initially (I guess we hold out a forlorn hope that T45 will get LRASM and Mk41).

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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A good portion of the Arleigh Burkes have no towed arrays, those that do have a 25 year old AN/SQR-19 set that isn't much cop, an ex-RN Submariner PWO friend of mine, didn't rate them as much as Sonar 2031.
The US Navy is retrofitting everything with the AN/SQQ-89A(V)15 ASW suite, which brings improvements to all sensors and the TB-37U MFTA towed array.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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Gabriele wrote:The US Navy is retrofitting everything with the AN/SQQ-89A(V)15 ASW suite, which brings improvements to all sensors and the TB-37U MFTA towed array.
How many have they actually ordered though? The price per unit seems a little low, to say the least, for a high end sonar system. Especially given the cost of Sonar 2087, which everyone seems to see as the benchmark for high end ASW. I'm still not convinced that the USN surface fleet actually takes ASW that seriously, which given their investment in SSN's and P-8's seems a little perturbing, particularly given the run around they've had in exercises with well handled D/E subs. There was some rumours that their investment in multistatic sonar buoys wasn't panning out that well either.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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Timmymagic wrote:
WhitestElephant wrote:This is what I have always followed:

Multi-mission warship - E.g Arleigh Burke class destroyer, with multiple specialised high-end capabilities (AAW, ASW & ASuW)
Single-mission warship - E.g Type 45 Destroyer, with a single specialised high-end capability (AAW)
General purpose warship - E.g La Fayette class frigate, with no specialised high-end capability whatsoever.
I think you're being a bit generous with the Arleigh Burke. It has a high end AAW capability, BMD capability (some of them) and land attack capability.

But ASW and ASuW?
A good portion of the Arleigh Burkes have no towed arrays, those that do have a 25 year old AN/SQR-19 set that isn't much cop, an ex-RN Submariner PWO friend of mine, didn't rate them as much as Sonar 2031. They're also not that quiet, certainly no where near a T23. Same with ASuW. You could say a few Russian, Taiwanese or South Korean ships are high end ASuW, but 8 Harpoons doesn't really cut it anymore. A T45 with Harpoons fitted and a Wildcat on the back with Sea Skua (let alone Sea Venom and Martlet) would have more ASuW weaponry, and crucially more usable weaponry. When LRASM comes along then it gets better for the Arleigh Burke, but thats a few years away yet, with only limited numbers being brought initially (I guess we hold out a forlorn hope that T45 will get LRASM and Mk41).
I meant land attack, not ASuW. My fault. Idiot me always thought they were the same thing.
Though we are not now that strength which in old days moved earth and heaven, that which we are, we are. - Lord Tennyson (Ulysses)

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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How many have they actually ordered though?
They have retrofitted a good number of ships already. They had completed 26 ships between 2009 and 2013. Last year they ordered 7 arrays. Year by year, they are rolling them out and according to adm. Greenert the Pacific Fleet DDGs should all have it by the end of 2018.

Their next big technology evolution attempt in ASW is the Continuous Active Sonar on LCS, using MFTA to listen and 2087 to put out coherent noise at variable depth. If the target becomes more and more silent, "paint" it with noise, instead of just listening.

There is not a doubt about them letting ASW go for a big number of years, but at least they are going back to it. The Royal Navy's willingness to mess around with dumb "GP" concepts does not suggest their return to ASW is nearly as sincere, despite all the Type 26 hype.
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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Gabriele wrote: They have retrofitted a good number of ships already. They had completed 26 ships between 2009 and 2013. Last year they ordered 7 arrays. Year by year, they are rolling them out and according to adm. Greenert the Pacific Fleet DDGs should all have it by the end of 2018.

Their next big technology evolution attempt in ASW is the Continuous Active Sonar on LCS, using MFTA to listen and 2087 to put out coherent noise at variable depth. If the target becomes more and more silent, "paint" it with noise, instead of just listening.

There is not a doubt about them letting ASW go for a big number of years, but at least they are going back to it. The Royal Navy's willingness to mess around with dumb "GP" concepts does not suggest their return to ASW is nearly as sincere, despite all the Type 26 hype
It makes sense to put more emphasis on active sonar again with AIP spreading and more and more quality D/E subs out there. Makes you wonder if we're going to see a new ASROC in the next decade. It makes sense that if you're radiating noise and (hopefully) detecting them at range to then kill them at range. Perhaps some sort of lash up like the recent MLRS rocket/SDB hybrid with the winged Mk54 on top of a rocket booster? But did the RN ever give up ASW like the USN seemed to?

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

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Timmymagic wrote:
Gabriele wrote: They have retrofitted a good number of ships already. They had completed 26 ships between 2009 and 2013. Last year they ordered 7 arrays. Year by year, they are rolling them out and according to adm. Greenert the Pacific Fleet DDGs should all have it by the end of 2018.

Their next big technology evolution attempt in ASW is the Continuous Active Sonar on LCS, using MFTA to listen and 2087 to put out coherent noise at variable depth. If the target becomes more and more silent, "paint" it with noise, instead of just listening.

There is not a doubt about them letting ASW go for a big number of years, but at least they are going back to it. The Royal Navy's willingness to mess around with dumb "GP" concepts does not suggest their return to ASW is nearly as sincere, despite all the Type 26 hype
It makes sense to put more emphasis on active sonar again with AIP spreading and more and more quality D/E subs out there. Makes you wonder if we're going to see a new ASROC in the next decade. It makes sense that if you're radiating noise and (hopefully) detecting them at range to then kill them at range. Perhaps some sort of lash up like the recent MLRS rocket/SDB hybrid with the winged Mk54 on top of a rocket booster? But did the RN ever give up ASW like the USN seemed to?
Of course not.

And thinking that putting some new technology array on a noisy hull like the AB's will suddenly make them world class is baloney.

By the way, it's the large investment in SSN's and MPA's by the US, that enables ASW to be a lower priority for the surface combatants. Most folks know the best ASW is another sub.

I have doubts about ASROC, on a Type 26, you'll be detecting the submarine well out of its current range. A longer ranged, winged ASROC would give the target time to get out of the engagement envelope of the Mk 54. There's a reason the RN got out of the Ikara business. Far best to send a Merlin with dipping sonar to fix & destroy the target.

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Re: Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN)

Post by Timmymagic »

Ron5 wrote:Of course not.

And thinking that putting some new technology array on a noisy hull like the AB's will suddenly make them world class is baloney.

By the way, it's the large investment in SSN's and MPA's by the US, that enables ASW to be a lower priority for the surface combatants. Most folks know the best ASW is another sub.

I have doubts about ASROC, on a Type 26, you'll be detecting the submarine well out of its current range. A longer ranged, winged ASROC would give the target time to get out of the engagement envelope of the Mk 54. There's a reason the RN got out of the Ikara business. Far best to send a Merlin with dipping sonar to fix & destroy the target.
One of the issues with the original ASROC (unguided) was that by the time the firing solution, flight time, descent and torpedo search operation had commenced the target could easily be out of range of the early MK46's, or make the shot very marginal at best. That's why the UK went with Ikara, the Torp would drop exactly where required. Course there was also the possibility that the ASROC was dropping a nuc...... But a guided ASROC, or a rocket boosted winged Mk54 or Stingray removes those issues, essentially it is a modern Ikara. And if we're getting Poseidon we're getting the glide kits as well (it will be interesting to see if Stingray is ever integrated to a glide kit) But all in all it is better to use a Merlin. I would hope the UK does the smart thing and does not get ASROC, leave the Mk41's for TLAM and LRASM and get a wing kit on Stingray so the P-8's have something to drop, and I suspect the Norwegians will be getting P-8 in due course, and they're a keen Stingray user.

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