Type 45 Destroyer (Daring Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Engaging Strategy]

Also note "under government plans, the navy is to operate just 14 principal surface combat ships". Perhaps an indication that FLF is seen as an "extra" rather than the credible warship that is required.

Source?

[Pseudo]

Also note "under government plans, the navy is to operate just 14 principal surface combat ships". Perhaps an indication that FLF is seen as an "extra" rather than the credible warship that is required.

Source?

It's in the Financial Times article Cooper provided an image of.

[WhitestElephant]

Also note "under government plans, the navy is to operate just 14 principal surface combat ships". Perhaps an indication that FLF is seen as an "extra" rather than the credible warship that is required.

That simply looks to be the writers interpretation of 6 T45 + 8 T26, not an actual informed insight into government planning.

[marktigger]

or the FLF os the "fictional light frigate"

[Engaging Strategy]

or the FLF Is the "fictional light frigate"

The politics of Scottish shipbuilding and the BAE TOBA would probably preclude an outright cancellation.

[GibMariner]

That simply looks to be the writers interpretation of 6 T45 + 8 T26, not an actual informed insight into government planning.

Yes, most likely. Defence reporting tends to leave a lot to be desired generally anyway. It also doesn't indicate a time frame - we still have those 6 T45, 8 ASW T23 and 5 GP T23 and unless there are unforeseen circumstances, this should continue for a number of years.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Also note "under government plans, the navy is to operate just 14 principal surface combat ships". Perhaps an indication that FLF is seen as an "extra" rather than the credible warship that is required.

We always have to out-do the French. As they have gone to a 2-tier (escorts) navy a long time ago, we will do 3-tier:
-those 14 referred to ( if we apply the T23 availability to the 8 T26s... that will make 2.5 + 6.5 = 9)
- more frigates would seem like a good idea (5+)
- and for the standing tasks not to absorb so many units that the Single Task Force couldn't set sail before they make their way back we are now busily building the 3rd tier (definitely not principal surface combat ships, but not quite frigates either)

[Caribbean]

We always have to out-do the French. As they have gone to a 2-tier (escorts) navy a long time ago, we will do 3-tier

I've always thought of the French as having a 4-tier navy, escorts, "light" frigates, the avisos and then the patrol boats. Though they are removing the ASW rockets and Exocet from the avisos now to replace the P400s, pending the arrival of BATSIMAR, so I suppose they are back to 3-tier. I guess exocet is a bit OTT for stopping a go-fast, amusing as it might be

[GibMariner]

24280 – Warships: Crew (Answered)

Emily Thornberry
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the total crew complement by rank and specialisation was of each of the Royal Navy’s (a) Type 45 Destroyers and (b) Type 23 Frigates on their most recent deployment.

Penny Mordaunt
Ships’ and submarines’ complements are not fixed; they vary, even across a Class, due to equipment fits and in response to specific tasking.

The table below shows the average number of liability positions for each ship when in their normal operating role.

Table here: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/02/2 ... -answered/

[GibMariner]

Defender in the Indian Ocean

HMS Defender’s helicopter ‘Joanna’ has been holding training drills in the middle of the Indian Ocean as the destroyer makes her way towards the port of Visakhapatnam in India.

The Portsmouth-based warship is one of two dozen vessels from the navies of the world attending the Indian International Fleet Review, which formally opens on Friday, reaches its climax on Saturday with the review itself and closes on Monday.

More than 70 warships are taking part in the review off the east coast port with the country’s president Pranab Mukherjee inspecting the six lines of vessels from a patrol ship over a three-hour period on Saturday morning.

The review is also the swansong for the world’s oldest operational aircraft carrier – INS Viraat – which served as the flagship of the Royal Navy’s Falklands task force back in 1982 before being sold to India three years later.

Read more: http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... dian-ocean

[GibMariner]

Julian Lewis, chairman of the Defence Committee, writes to the Secretary of State for Defence regarding the Type 45 propulsion issues:
http://www.parliament.uk/documents/comm ... %2045s.pdf

[GibMariner]

25005 – Type 45 Destroyers: Repairs and Maintenance (Answered)

Emily Thornberry
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, for how many days (a) HMS Daring, (b) HMS Dauntless, (c) HMS Diamond, (d) HMS Dragon, (e) HMS Defender and (f) HMS Duncan underwent (i) planned maintenance and (ii) repair work in each of the last six years.

Mr Philip Dunne

The amount spent on Maintenance and Repair for the six Type 45 Destroyers is detailed in the table below rounded to the nearest half million:

Table here: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/02/2 ... -answered/

[GibMariner]

25004 – Type 45 Destroyers (Answered)

Emily Thornberry
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, how many operational defects (a) HMS Daring, (b) HMS Dauntless, (c) HMS Diamond, (d) HMS Dragon, (e) HMS Defender and (f) HMS Duncan have reported in each of the last six years.

Mr Philip Dunne

All complex systems suffer defects and require maintenance throughout their life, and warships are no exception. Operational Defects (OPDEFS) can vary in their categorisation and severity, covering minor ancillary components to major defects. The OPDEF process only applies to Ships in operational service, and I have therefore supplied the numbers for full years for Type 45 ships since their Commissioning.

Table here: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/02/2 ... -answered/

[GibMariner]

24953 – Type 45 Destroyers: Engines (Answered)

Sir Nicholas Soames
To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what alterations were made to the pulsion system of the Type 45 destroyer between the launch of the first and the sixth such destroyers.

Mr Philip Dunne

The decision to procure the Rolls Royce WR21 was taken in November 2000 by the then Defence Secretary, Geoff Hoon. In announcing the decision, he accepted this decision “presents a greater degree of risk to the programme.”

Following that decision a number of issues with the Type 45 Integrated Electrical Propulsion (IEP) system were identified when the First of Class, HMS Daring was launched in 2006.

From 2006 to the launch of the sixth and final Type 45 in October 2010, the Type 45 Destroyer class had around fifty minor design alterations directly attributable to the development of the Type 45 IEP system identified. The subsequent implementation process for acceptance of these alterations is necessarily rigorous to maintain safety and system design intent. As a result, the majority of Type 45 IEP alterations were implemented after the launch of the last of class.

Read more here: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2016/02/2 ... -answered/

[GibMariner]

Type 45 Destroyers
Ministry of Defence written question – answered on 4th February 2016.

Emily Thornberry Shadow Secretary of State for Defence

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to the Answer of 2 March 2015 to Question HL 5030, when he expects the upgrade work required on Type 45 destroyers to be completed; whether any such destroyers on which such work has not been completed have been deployed on any operation since the decision to proceed with the upgrade work was taken; and what assessment he has made of the effect of that work on the operational capability of the Royal Navy.

Philip Dunne Minister of State (Ministry of Defence) (Defence Procurement)

All Royal Navy ships have a rolling programme of work which is being applied as operational commitments, planned maintenance and design solutions allow. With regard to the Type 45s, decisions on the optional Diesel Generator upgrade, announced in the Strategic Defence and Security Review 2015 is in the planning phase and the costs and timescales of the three leading options will be confirmed in the Assessment Phase.

I am withholding information about the potential costs of the Diesel Generator upgrade as releasing such information at this stage would prejudice the commercial position of the MOD.

Since the previous answer was given, Type 45 Destroyers have routinely deployed to the Gulf, with HMS Duncan undertaking the first successful nine month deployment of a Type 45 to that region in 2015. She was relieved by HMS Defender in December 2015, also on a nine month deployment, which is currently utilising the recognised world leading Anti-Air Warfare capabilities of Type 45 in providing direct support and protection to the US carrier operations against Daesh.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id ... 01.25252.h

[GibMariner]

Type 45 Destroyers
Ministry of Defence written question – answered on 4th February 2016.

Emily Thornberry Shadow Secretary of State for Defence

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, with reference to the Answer of 2 March 2015 to Question HL5030, how much his Department on the feasibility phase for undertaking a diesel generator upgrade to the Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers; when the feasibility phase for that work was concluded; when his Department made a decision on whether to proceed with the upgrade programme; how many options for undertaking the upgrade work were initially presented to his Department by BAE Systems; whether BAE Systems was asked to present further options to his Department, in addition to those initially presented; which option his Department chose to proceed with, and for what reasons; what estimate he has made of the cost of carrying out that work on each of the Royal Navy's Type 45 destroyers; on how many destroyers such upgrade work has commenced; and on how many such destroyers the upgrade work is complete.

Philip Dunne Minister of State (Ministry of Defence) (Defence Procurement)

As referenced in the answer given on 2 March 2015 by the then Under Secretary of State for Defence, Lord Astor of Hever, to Question HL5030, the initial feasibility phase of upgrading the Type 45 diesel generators concluded in March 2015. Following this, further feasibility studies were completed in November 2015 at a cost of £4.7million. A range of technical options and a variety of delivery models are currently being explored with competing industrial partners and when the way forward has been determined, will be subject to the Departments formal approvals process. This approval will constitute a decision to proceed.

BAE systems initially presented a range of options. The MOD was satisfied with the range of choices presented and has since selected the three leading options to be taken forward into the Assessment Phase.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id ... 01.25253.h

[GibMariner]

Type 45 Destroyers
Ministry of Defence written question – answered on 4th February 2016.

Gregory Campbell Shadow DUP Spokesperson (International Development), Shadow DUP Spokesperson (Cabinet Office)

To ask the Secretary of State for Defence, what the total cost was of alterations and refits to the six naval Type 45 destroyers to ensure they are fit for purpose.

Philip Dunne Minister of State (Ministry of Defence) (Defence Procurement)

A number of measures to improve the reliability of the Type 45 Power and Propulsion systems have been identified. A programme was established in 2014 to implement these changes and continues to deliver positive results. In addition, and as announced in the Strategic Defence and Secuity Review 2015, we are planning to improve system resilience by adding upgraded diesel generators to provide further electrical generation capacity . Alternative technical options and a variety of delivery models are currently being explored with several competing industrial partners.

The total cost and timetable of implementing the diesel generator upgrade will be determined at the main investment decision. To reveal our current estimates would prejudice the commercial interests of the Department.

http://www.theyworkforyou.com/wrans/?id ... 01.25063.h

[GibMariner]

[ArmChairCivvy]

If something was forgotten at the time of their construction, at least the design allows for plenty more to be added onto the T45s:
"The Type 45
capability shall be
able to be
upgraded to
incorporate new
capabilities or to
enhance extant
capabilities through
displacement
Margins of at least
11.5%."

That something will need to be done has been public at least from Feb 2011 (sure, the NAO reporting does not quite spell out what, but by now we know):
HMS Dauntless Material Assessment
& Safety Check in February 2011
showed that whilst Weapons
Engineering aspects were satisfactory
Marine Engineering aspects were
deemed to be Below Standard."

[rec]

Is it possible that the T45s may get a full refit with extra VLS and the command systems similar to T22 batch 3s? it would make sense, along with a decent sonar?

[Engaging Strategy]

Is it possible that the T45s may get a full refit with extra VLS and the command systems similar to T22 batch 3s? it would make sense, along with a decent sonar?

The extra cells on T-45 are almost certainly going to be used for BMD with the SM-3 missile. Until the UK is ready to move on that front it's not gonna happen. Not sure what's already in place but I'm convinced that all future "tier 1" UK escorts should have task group command facilities. It buys you influence through operational command. A new sonar would be prohibitively expensive, not gonna happen.

[Tony Williams]

The extra cells on T-45 are almost certainly going to be used for BMD with the SM-3 missile.

Really? I thought that the Aster system was being developed with BMD in mind.

I would think that adopting an entirely new SAM system like the Aegis/SM-3 would certainly need a new fire control system, and possibly a different radar - not exactly a "load on board and fire" project.

[Gabriele]

The fabled Aster Block 2 or "45" is nowhere to be seen. There is capability against short range ballistic threats in the Aster 30 Block 1 (used in the SAMP-T land based SAM batteries the UK does not have) and now France is starting the Block 1 New Technology development which will expand those capabilities somewhat. Italy is expected to join, the UK probably no.

The MOD funded a study into adding SM-3 to the Type 45 in late 2014. That seems to be the direction of travel for if / when a BMD development is funded.

Raytheon is developing a data link specifically meant to ease SM-3 integration on european warships using the SMART radar; while SAMPSON is supposed to have latent compatibility with US missiles. In fact, the MOD has been funding software mods to use SAMPSON for the BMD tracking, rather than SMART like mostly everyone else in Europe is doing.

[ArmChairCivvy]

The MOD funded a study into adding SM-3 to the Type 45 in late 2014. That seems to be the direction of travel for if / when a BMD development is funded.

Raytheon is developing a data link specifically meant to ease SM-3 integration on european warships using the SMART radar; while SAMPSON is supposed to have latent compatibility with US missiles. In fact, the MOD has been funding software mods to use SAMPSON for the BMD tracking, rather than SMART like mostly everyone else in Europe is doing.

Yep, all those things happening but the practical trials (proving the sw level mods to existing radars) have so far been between the Dutch and the Americans (Raytheon, mainly).

[Gabriele]

SAMPSON demonstrated BMD target tracking back in 2013 when Daring went to the US exercise in the Pacific.

ASD15 was supposed to see the participating Type 45 demonstrate a more sophisticate software enabling simultaneous AAW and BMD tracking (something no one else in Europe has done yet, and even the US Aegis ship can only do it with the latest Aegis 9 release). Problem is: we really aren't sure the Type 45 was there at all. If it was there, it sure proved its stealth...