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River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 04 Jan 2019, 17:08

For now as long as we can get the 3 B1 Rivers , 4 42m cutters and 4 20m ribs fully manned it would be a good start

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Jan 2019, 23:20

And all of the above transferred to an independent HM Coastguard.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 05 Jan 2019, 03:59

Tempest414 wrote: 3 B1 Rivers

+
Lord Jim wrote:transferred to an independent HM Coastguard


HMS Mersey fully-costed day rate (for transfers :D ) £ 20k ?
=> 3 x 365 x 20K

Save the Royal Navy picked up this yesterday: "On 3rd January HMS Mersey left Portsmouth and will be deployed in the Channel. The Home office will pay the MoD the approximately £20,000 per day it costs to operate the ship and she will remain on station until relieved by the two UK Border Force cutters returning from the Mediterranean. It is unclear how long this will take, HMC Seeker is currently alongside in Gibraltar and HMC Protector is in the harbour at Mytilini on the Greek island of Lesbos.

HMS Mersey and HMS Tyne are the only OPVs the RN currently has available. HMS Severn is just beginning the process of being reactivated after being de-stored and in mothballs since decommissioning in 2017."
- only goes to show how partial the cost of £ 11 mln (for keeping the three in 'good grease') was

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 05 Jan 2019, 10:42

My point is more if could man the 3 B1 rivers and boarder force cutters properly and get them where need then we would be heading in the right way from a future point of view and post brexit I would like to see proper UKCG made up of

8 x Stan 5009's
8 x 20 m Ribs
22 helicopters
8 Britten- Norman Denfenders MPA fitted with seaspray 7000e radar

This force would be backup by 3 B2 Rivers and the FRE and as said before any of these ships could carry Border force or fishery officers to enforce the law at sea

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 05 Jan 2019, 10:59

Last year 150k asylum seekers came across the Med into Greece, 110K into Italy. 26k people claim asylum in the uk each year 250 came across the channel! Storm in a tea cup in a slow news period creates huge over reaction by Tory leadership candidates playing to the base same with overseas bases. Italy found the best way to stop such action is one caught sent straight back to the country they left.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 05 Jan 2019, 11:25

For me it is more about having one force for UK coastal waters able to react as one to any number of issues from people trying to paddle across the channel to fishery also with the force above it would allow 1 or 2 ships to stationed in Gib to help in the Med

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 05 Jan 2019, 11:35

Or in other words a force hither to called the Royal Navy.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 05 Jan 2019, 13:54

SW1 wrote:Or in other words a force hither to called the Royal Navy.

Nope - a force formerly called, HM Coastguard, Border Force, Welsh (and possibly Scottish) Fishery Protection Agencies, HMRC, local council operated Marine Environmental Control, London, Kent, Sussex, Dorset etc. etc. Marine Police Units etc etc etc.

All under one organisation, with responsibility for law-enforcement and SAR within UK Territorial Waters and EEZ. Operating under similar discipline to the RFA. Also able to assist the RN.
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby S M H » 05 Jan 2019, 17:57

Caribbean wrote:Nope - a force formerly called, HM Coastguard, Border Force, Welsh (and possibly Scottish) Fishery Protection Agencies, HMRC, local council operated Marine Environmental Control, London, Kent, Sussex, Dorset etc. etc. Marine Police Units etc etc etc.All under one organisation, with responsibility for law-enforcement and SAR within UK Territorial Waters and EEZ. Operating under similar discipline to the RFA. Also able to assist the RN.
In the 1980s there was plans to put a us style coast gaurd covering maritime police units. S.A.R aircraft and marine craft .coast guard. civil fishery enforcement and hm customs cutters. It was effectively scuppered because it could not be G.O.C.O. crewed as treasury insisted on. This along with departmental protect my budget stopped what. Would have been a single organisation giving a better coverage than the present fragmented system. With contractor owned assets (coast guard) and border force this would be a political anathema even if it makes sense 35 years after it was first proposed.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jan 2019, 18:49

Maybe something will come out of the next SDSR under the "Security" portion. An independent service with the Three B1 Rivers as their High Endurance Cutters with the other assets would form a solid core to start with. Use Contractors to provide air support, and bring the SAR contract under the service as well. Spread the costa across as many departments as possible so all have a stake and see how things develop. When out of the EU there are going to be more things to worry about on top of migrants.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 05 Jan 2019, 18:50

Caribbean wrote:
SW1 wrote:Or in other words a force hither to called the Royal Navy.

Nope - a force formerly called, HM Coastguard, Border Force, Welsh (and possibly Scottish) Fishery Protection Agencies, HMRC, local council operated Marine Environmental Control, London, Kent, Sussex, Dorset etc. etc. Marine Police Units etc etc etc.

All under one organisation, with responsibility for law-enforcement and SAR within UK Territorial Waters and EEZ. Operating under similar discipline to the RFA. Also able to assist the RN.


No the National maritime information centre at the Northwood bunker coordinates martime security of the uk eez and coordinates assigns assets as required.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 05 Jan 2019, 18:51

Lord Jim wrote:Maybe something will come out of the next SDSR under the "Security" portion. An independent service with the Three B1 Rivers as their High Endurance Cutters with the other assets would form a solid core to start with. Use Contractors to provide air support, and bring the SAR contract under the service as well. Spread the costa across as many departments as possible so all have a stake and see how things develop. When out of the EU there are going to be more things to worry about on top of migrants.


This is already pretty clear https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... y_2014.pdf

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jan 2019, 19:11

Great piece of governmental waffle. Good intentions but little real substance. The Maritime aviation contract was cancelled in 2017 as it was decided it was no longer needed after a risk assessment for example. The three Rivers and the few cutters are woefully inadequate for the size of out coastline. Everyone knows how effective the UK's "Joined up", strategies have worked in the past. All they are is a way to cut cost whilst appearing to maintain capability levels.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 05 Jan 2019, 19:22

Lord Jim wrote:Great piece of governmental waffle. Good intentions but little real substance. The Maritime aviation contract was cancelled in 2017 as it was decided it was no longer needed after a risk assessment for example. The three Rivers and the few cutters are woefully inadequate for the size of out coastline. Everyone knows how effective the UK's "Joined up", strategies have worked in the past. All they are is a way to cut cost whilst appearing to maintain capability levels.


From looking at other nation cost gaurds and EEZ protections who have a similar size cost line to us IMHO we would need to dramatically increase the number of assets used in these roles, how we do that is up for debate
A offfical cost gaurd ?
A joining of ukbf and fishery set leaving OPV in the RN ?
Same as we have now but closer operational set up ?

Personal I prefer the idea of a official CG set up bringing all in to one, my only corner here is if the RB1s and RB2s are tool from the RN for this new CG this could really hamper the RNs ship command progression rout.

But if we did go this rout I personal feel we'd need a set up like this judging from other nations -

8 x OPV ( 2 for each cost line )
12 x 40m-55m cutters ( 3 for each cost line )
12-16 x vessels in the size, speed and sea handle range of a mk6 patrol boat ( 3-4 for each cost )
A number of rotorie UAVs
A number of light aircraft

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 05 Jan 2019, 20:34

Lord Jim wrote:An independent service with the Three B1 Rivers as their High Endurance Cutters with the other assets would form a solid core to start with
Why not offload the RB1's and the RB2's leaving RN to get on and build some well balanced and truly useful global patrol vessels suitable for use in low threat environments?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 05 Jan 2019, 21:21

SW1 wrote:No the National maritime information centre at the Northwood bunker coordinates martime security of the uk eez and coordinates assigns assets as required.

.... and has no authority over any civilian assets outside of a State of Emergency. Uniting all civilian maritime security assets under a single command and coordinating them all through the National Maritime Operations Centre in Fareham makes complete sense. I'm sorry that you have such a "bunker" mentality about this :twisted:
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 05 Jan 2019, 22:08

Caribbean wrote:
SW1 wrote:No the National maritime information centre at the Northwood bunker coordinates martime security of the uk eez and coordinates assigns assets as required.

.... and has no authority over any civilian assets outside of a State of Emergency. Uniting all civilian maritime security assets under a single command and coordinating them all through the National Maritime Operations Centre in Fareham makes complete sense. I'm sorry that you have such a "bunker" mentality about this :twisted:


It doesn’t make sense they need to be co ordinated at a functional level that is able to respond to all possible scenarios and use of all intelligence in the most secure way. Eg the NMIC

No bunkered mentality just a belief that your wrong in your thinking. The idea that merging functions under an organisation with no knowledge off or ability to command what would amount to paramilitary style organisation makes no sense when the current set up functions adequately well. In my opinion it’s about as sensible as transferring QRA to NPAS.

The RN has conducted and is conducting martime security operations both in the traditional choke point of the channel as well as in the Mediterranean as it has done for decades.

This idea of a militarised coastguard tends to originate from a position that it is not a RN task to conduct such patrols usually coupled with some hope that both personnel and budget would/should be allocated to true warships like type 23 ect and the like and the RN not play around with these lessor tasks.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 05 Jan 2019, 23:02

Who said anything about a "militarised" Force. This would not be a para-military force like the USCG but a civilian organisation that would have similar powers to the Police but on the water. Sure if the Rivers were transferred they could be armed if a state of emergency was declared can have there crew supplemented by either regular or reserve RN personnel, but day to day they would not be armed with the current weapons removed. The crew would have a certain number trained in small arms and boarding actions to allow them to carry out their duty.

HM Coastguard still exists and has a substantial knowledge of the UK's coastline and coastal waters. The training of the personnle to man the command hub will take time but current technology allows almost any even to be simulateed at command level. Having a "Hot link" to Northwood to allow combined operations when needed would allow civilian and military co-operation.

I would propose starting small with the transfer of vessels from the RN, Boarder Force and Fisheries from accross the UK as the starting point for sea based assets. Renegociation the contract with the original company to conduct air patrols and brin gin the companies contracted by the Scotish and Welsh devolved governments. Ensure that there are as few blind spots in the UKs maritime radar network must also be a priority.

This would basically be an exercise in moving personnel and assets around the board and into one organisation. The additional costs would not be substantial and in fact could be quite small in the grand scheme of things. As I mentioned above draw funding from multiple departments so that all have share the initial burden and have a Government Minister appointed to head up the new organisation as if it were placed under an exisitng department it would be vulnerable to budgetary cuts when said department has to make savings.

As for the B2 Rivers, I would disperse them to overseas stations to show the flag, with one in Gibraltar, one in the Falklands, and one in the Caribbean. This would leave one in refit and one available for contingencies in UK waters if a situation arose.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 05 Jan 2019, 23:33

SW1 wrote:This idea of a militarised coastguard

SW1 wrote:what would amount to paramilitary style organisation

Which is your obsession, not mine. I've clearly stated on more than one occasion that the proposed CG should operate in a similar manner to the RFA - meaning that it only operates under military discipline when a vessel is commanded by an RN officer. Operation of military weapons would also require RN weapons teams aboard (not that I've actually proposed that they carry ANY weapons, TBH). Since you , by implication, bring that subject up, I'm happy that they only carry weapons normally carried by Police in their normal role.
SW1 wrote:The idea that merging functions ....... when the current set up functions adequately well

Only it clearly doesn't. It ignores 90% of the assets available (small, therefor insignificant in naval eyes), requires the Home Secretary to request RN assistance (I thought you said that it was all run by Northwood) and leaves 3 of the 5 UKBF cutters in the Med. A single centre coordinating all civilian assets is clearly more efficient and would give a single (and clear) relationship between civilian and military forces.
SW1 wrote:No bunkered mentality

I see my small attempt at levity went straight over your head. Gives me food for thought
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 05 Jan 2019, 23:34

Oops - post removed - double post!
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 06 Jan 2019, 02:16

#As this is River OPV thread, not Coast Guard (CG) nor Border Force (BF) Cutter tread, I will concentrate on it.

1: The 5 River B2 is very high-end in its standard as an OPV; has CMS and good firefighting capabilities, not needed for CG cutter. Also, Falkland Island guard ship, and shadowing Russian warships passing near Britain (a good fraction of FRE tasks), (I also think River B2 can do "more"), will continue to be Navy's tasks. As such, I think River B2 shall be retained in RN, regardless of how UK CG/BF organizations to expand.

2: The 3 (+1) River B1 is a typical CG medium endurance cutter. Also they are to undergo mid-life refit soon. If to be equipped as a BF cutter (or CG cutter, when the name is to change), it is a good chance. Many military equipments are just a burden for BF crew; expensive, old, and man-power intensive (not COTS). Mid-life refit can change it. Also, (sorry to Brazil), BF can also purchase HMS Clyde to make it a fleet of 4.

3: More 42m cutter is needed. River OPV is, as designed, EEZ patrol and fishery protection vessel. To cover the Channel, Damen 4207 cutter will be much more cheap to buy (was £4.3M per unit in 2001-04) and operate (needs only 12 crew). It is exactly designed to cover Channel. For example, build 16 of them; 4 right now from Damen to be delivered by 2020 (~£20-24M contract?), and 12 more in UK shipyards "steadily". 2 hulls per year, in 6 years contract will conclude in 2026 (will be £70-100M in 6 years total program). Then;
- order another 4 to replace the initial batch of 42m BF cutter. (2 year)
- order another 16 to replace Archer class Patrol Boats of RN. (8 year)
Thus the ship yard can survive until 2036 :thumbup:

For the time being, lease some vessels to fill the gap (anyway, BF/CG need to grow up, which will take time).

4: Man-power and budget.
RN is in short of man-power, so reducing (or not increasing) their tasks is important. As BF cutters do not need to "deploy" world-wide as long as 9 months (because of BREXIT, there will be no Medditeranian tasks any more), recruiting will be more easy than Navy. They are civilian, so must be cheaper than RN member. Therefore, I agree it will be better to increase the BF (or CG) budget and man-power than using RN OPVs. Importantly, keep the BF (or CG) "non-military", such as Japan Coast Guard and not as USCG. Then the budget could be "outside" the "2% GDP military (NATO requirement)".

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Jan 2019, 07:11

Lord Jim wrote:Sure if the Rivers were transferred they could be armed
... with a water cannon :)
Lord Jim wrote:I would propose starting small with the transfer of vessels from the RN
As I have said upthread, I am for consolidation, but upping the cost (on-going) should be a matter for careful consideration
Lord Jim wrote:have a Government Minister appointed to head up the new organisation as if it were placed under an exisitng department it would be vulnerable to budgetary cuts when said department has to make savings.

Any idea how many ministers there are, already? This ring-fencing line of thought has brought about that number, is constantly leading to overlaps (that then take time and money to be eliminated)... and in the extreme, has also weakened parliamentary oversight of the Executive. Someone counted that if you throw in envoys etc. a third of the elected MPs of the governing party are actually :idea: Gvmnt employees now
- where do we find the Guards, to guard the Guards
- forget about Henry VIII (powers) and think of what happened to Rome (though, we are not quite a "Rome")

So, in summary the R1s come in handy for now but the exercise (for however long it will last) will also make the level of added cost visible.
- and I hear that HMS Clyde will be Brazil-bound, in due course, so no need to worry about RB1.5

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 06 Jan 2019, 09:29

Caribbean wrote:
SW1 wrote:This idea of a militarised coastguard

SW1 wrote:what would amount to paramilitary style organisation

Which is your obsession, not mine. I've clearly stated on more than one occasion that the proposed CG should operate in a similar manner to the RFA - meaning that it only operates under military discipline when a vessel is commanded by an RN officer. Operation of military weapons would also require RN weapons teams aboard (not that I've actually proposed that they carry ANY weapons, TBH). Since you , by implication, bring that subject up, I'm happy that they only carry weapons normally carried by Police in their normal role.
SW1 wrote:The idea that merging functions ....... when the current set up functions adequately well

Only it clearly doesn't. It ignores 90% of the assets available (small, therefor insignificant in naval eyes), requires the Home Secretary to request RN assistance (I thought you said that it was all run by Northwood) and leaves 3 of the 5 UKBF cutters in the Med. A single centre coordinating all civilian assets is clearly more efficient and would give a single (and clear) relationship between civilian and military forces.
SW1 wrote:No bunkered mentality

I see my small attempt at levity went straight over your head. Gives me food for thought


Must of got confused the when your first comments on this subject said you’d like a coastguard along the lines of a US coast guard service. If you want them armed with nothing more than pepper spray and a taser fair enough.

The reason the cutters are in the med is a prime ministerial decision that there is a several orders of magnitude worse there than in the channel.

Well this is apparently what they do.

NMIC AND JMOCC — MONITORING VESSEL MOVEMENTS, COORDINATING RESPONSE
The National Maritime Information Centre (NMIC) and the Joint Maritime Operations Coordination Centre (JMOCC) support cross-government efforts to monitor, evaluate and address threats to our shipping worldwide, with special focus on activity in the UK Exclusive Economic Zone.

The NMIC is staffed by experts from a range of government departments and its available resources include a variety of vessel tracking and monitoring systems and a wealth of information provided by domestic and international partners. So when it comes to protecting Red Ensign Group flagged vessels from piracy in the Gulf of Guinea and Indian Ocean, from the consequences of international conflicts or terrorism in the Gulf of Aden and Southern Red Sea or sometimes even from hazardous wrecks, the NMIC provides the data on which to base policy decisions and formulate advice.

If a suspect vessel is identified in our waters, the recently formed Joint Maritime Operations Coordination Centre (JMOCC), is able to coordinate deployable assets that can intercept and address any criminal or other threat. This can save lives and protect our borders

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 06 Jan 2019, 10:21

SW1 wrote:threats to our shipping worldwide

+
SW1 wrote:address any criminal or other threat. This can save lives and protect our borders


Howabout saving lives in the normal sense: Trawlers, boaters, illegal immigrants...?
- sounds like the cut-off is a tad higher, or is it just down to a partial quote?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 06 Jan 2019, 10:51

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
SW1 wrote:threats to our shipping worldwide

+
SW1 wrote:address any criminal or other threat. This can save lives and protect our borders


Howabout saving lives in the normal sense: Trawlers, boaters, illegal immigrants...?
- sounds like the cut-off is a tad higher, or is it just down to a partial quote?


Saving lives in the normal sense is the coastguard search and rescue. Illegal immigrants is a criminal matter.

http://www.nautinstlondon.co.uk/nautins ... ooklet.pdf

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.u ... 7-2018.pdf

Quote is page 28.


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