UK Defence Forum

That is a totally backwards approach.

Let the civvies deal with the simple stuff like counting fish, and let the MOD focus the very expensive skilled military people on the complex tasks like submarine operations, or fast jets at sea.

Have to prioritise.

shark bait wrote:That is a totally backwards approach.

Let the civvies deal with the simple stuff like counting fish, and let the MOD focus the very expensive skilled military people on the complex tasks like submarine operations, or fast jets at sea.

Have to prioritise.

The value of something does not always equal its cost. A lot of people have cut their teeth on these platforms as the smaller platforms grow skills very differently to being part of a bigger ship. The RN is already struggling to get people the training and experience they need, and that first command of a smaller ship is often pointed to as major stepping stone.

Not saying that it has to be kept in house, but the benefits aren't just to an individuals maths skills.

Absolutely, I am not suggesting getting rid of small ship, I'm suggesting ditching the low value activity. Still plenty of small ships doing highly valuable work like the survey ships and mine clearance ships.

Everything the RN does should add direct value to its core competencies of Aircraft, Subs and Marines. Counting fish does not do that.

shark bait wrote:Absolutely, I am not suggesting getting rid of small ship, I'm suggesting ditching the low value activity. Still plenty of small ships doing highly valuable work like the survey ships and mine clearance ships.

Everything the RN does should add direct value to its core competencies of Aircraft, Subs and Marines. Counting fish does not do that.

Upholding the rule of law and UK interests in our EEZ is not something you can hire out. You also are forgetting that the lower end stuff is exactly what gives the RN depth in wartime, opportunity to train and allows them to quickly address escalations (which a commercial ship cannot). Can you seriously imagine a Serco ship trailing a Russian warship travelling through the channel?

Can Scottish BAE workers actually be arsed?

Repulse wrote:Given the relative effort to get the home waters secured

Repulse wrote:Upholding the rule of law and UK interests in our EEZ is not something you can hire out.

Already done.

Repulse wrote:that the lower end stuff is exactly what gives the RN depth in wartime

Bullshit.

Having laid up mine hinters, a Frigate and a Destroyer for lack of crew, and at the same time allocating more crew to patrol vessels does not create "depth in wartime"

shark bait wrote:

Repulse wrote:Upholding the rule of law and UK interests in our EEZ is not something you can hire out.

Already done.

Repulse wrote:that the lower end stuff is exactly what gives the RN depth in wartime

Bullshit.

Having laid up mine hinters, a Frigate and a Destroyer for lack of crew, and at the same time allocating more crew to patrol vessels does not create "depth in wartime"

Utter crap - if you think 1 active OPV in UK waters, a few unarmed Border Control ships plus a part time FRE, equates to “already done” you are deluded.

The first priority of defence is to protect your own country. In total numbers the 5 B2 Rivers have the approx same crew demands as a single Frigate, that’s a 30-40% capability verses 5 ships at close to 90%. MCMs are important, but given the nature of the threats, then I’d go for an OPV which can support ASW helicopters, host large boarding parties with large Rhibs, quickly get to the areas needed, stay on station for extended periods, carry significant stores for HADR and have superior Radar any day...

Repulse wrote:The first priority of defence is to protect your own country.

Your defining protection of the motherland in terms of fish is utter bullshit.

Hackers can shut down our power and transport infrastructure, but we’ve secured our seas and Her Majesty’s pilchards can sleep sound in their kelp beds.

RichardIC wrote:

Repulse wrote:The first priority of defence is to protect your own country.

Your defining protection of the motherland in terms of fish is utter bullshit.

Hackers can shut down our power and transport infrastructure, but we’ve secured our seas and Her Majesty’s pilchards can sleep sound in their kelp beds.

Defence is all encompassing in the modern era.

You don't need people in uniform to stage a cyber attack, but you do need the defence force to protect you food security in you home waters unarmed fisheries vessels can only do so much.

https://www.news.com.au/world/chinese-c ... 2acba8da19

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diploma ... oast-guard

R686 wrote:You don't need people in uniform to stage a cyber attack, but you do need the defence force to protect you food security in you home waters unarmed fisheries vessels can only do so much.

The UK exports most of its fish catch. The industry is now tiny. It's a small earner although important in a number of communities.

Bio-security is the most important factor in domestic food production - preventing Mad Cow II, FMD, and various blights that can wipe out entire crops. Bloody hell, you're Australian, you guys are obsessed with that shit - rightly.

I had a walk-on part in the last FMD crisis. It was grim, proper apocalyptically grim. Gold Command figuring out how to shut down the entire countryside in 24 hours was the fun part.

Patrol vessels really don't figure in the equation.

RichardIC wrote:Patrol vessels really don't figure in the equation.

I am trying very hard to understand your argument, do you mean the UK EEZ doesn't need patrolled at all?

Poiuytrewq wrote:I am trying very hard to understand your argument, do you mean the UK EEZ doesn't need patrolled at all?

I'm exaggerating for dramatic effect. It does. Are fish patrols a priority? I can think of far bigger.

RichardIC wrote:

Repulse wrote:The first priority of defence is to protect your own country.

Your defining protection of the motherland in terms of fish is utter bullshit.

Hackers can shut down our power and transport infrastructure, but we’ve secured our seas and Her Majesty’s pilchards can sleep sound in their kelp beds.

Have you even bothered to f’ing read what I said. I am a big fan of the shiny but if you don’t even see the value in having patrol ships, not to just count fish, but for the reasons I’ve stated then I give up trying to debate the point with you. If you think this will take funds away from right weak points you point out rather than supporting a globally deplorable division etc then you are mad.

Weird times....

SKB wrote:
Weird times....

Very impressive is, her very small wave generation. The pilot boat is actually generating more waves.

Related, but may be more for River B2 vessels, this new "Hull Vane" technology astern is very interesting. Improvement in fuel efficiency
- 18% @ 12knots
- 27% @ 15knots
- 22% @ 20 knots
for a French "Affaires Maritimes"'s patrol boat, 52 m long.

http://www.navyrecognition.com/index.ph ... mance.html

for HMS Tamar (P225), the fourth of the five Batch 2's

Mersey on the Mersey

HMS Tamar (P233)
Anyone know why Tamar isn't P225 as expected? Is 225 another one of those supersticious numbers in the RN?

HMS Tamar (P233) is now floating.


(BAE Maritime)

This
"One of the major issues with aid is that most of the Caribbean BOTs are actually too rich for aid to be counted as ODA (it's actually very unfair as average earnings are driven up by small numbers of extremely wealthy people living in them - all you need is a couple of billionaires in somewhere the size of a small town!) Most are not only on fairly ordinary salaries, but also have to cope with very high prices."
has actually changed now:
"Some Caribbean islands damaged last year by hurricanes did not get official development assistance because their national incomes were too high.

After UK pressure, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has agreed a new mechanism.

It would see them appear on the official list of poorer countries.

This would mean the countries are eligible for official development assistance - known as ODA."

Further:
shark bait wrote:
heir is a stability and security budget [fund]
that is held by the department for international development
- include training of law enforcement (CGs included)
- RN to provide only the hull and a fraction of crew; local taxation to pay for "the gaz and the like"; just like the Fisheries "dept" here in the UK

ArmChairCivvy wrote:After UK pressure, the Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD) has agreed a new mechanism.

It would see them appear on the official list of poorer countries.

This would mean the countries are eligible for official development assistance - known as ODA."

Good to hear that. HMG has been pushing this for quite a while now, so good to see that the approach has borne fruit. This will give access to the £14b in the aid budget.

ArmChairCivvy wrote:heir is a stability and security budget [fund]
that is held by the department for international development
- include training of law enforcement (CGs included)
- RN to provide only the hull and a fraction of crew; local taxation to pay for "the gaz and the like"; just like the Fisheries "dept" here in the UK

I try to keep my ear to the ground over in the Caribbean, and I hear that here have been discussions over a potential Coast Guard being created in Cayman, with HMG backing (which might be a model for the rest of the BOTs) - they had a major tragedy two years ago (five lost at sea, including two children, which is a huge event in a country the size of a small town), which has prompted them to start looking at what they do it terms of marine security. It will be interesting to see whether the discussions bear fruit.

Caribbean-san
Is it SAR coast guard, as in UK, or EEZ anti-smuggler considered?
If it is former, a RHIB like SAR craft will be needed, but if latter, UK can order patrol craft, such as Damen4207, from Appledore.

Donald-san
At the moment, I don't know specifically, but I suspect, from what has been said in the local press, and from the report into the incident in 2016, that they are looking at something between the RNLI (Royal National Lifeboat Institute) and an enhanced maritime police/ anti-smuggler capability. They have a huge EEZ, and a problem with Cuban boat people, Jamaican marijuana smugglers and Colombian cocaine smugglers (mainly in transit to the North, but they occasionally drop off around Cayman or the sister islands). TCI re-modelled their system some years ago to use a shore-based Scanter radar and fast interceptors, rather than blue-water patrol boats, but their EEZ is much smaller.

A Coast Guard with enforcement powers sounds like it could only be a good thing for the Caribbean territories. If it increases the self sufficiency and security of the islands, whilst reducing the load on the RN it sounds like a no brainier.

I'm sure cost may be prohibitive, so it's great news if the foreign office can now contribute.

A couple of patrol boats and a shallow draft cargo cargo ship could provide a great service in the region. (Time to head to the Damen website, its great for building a fantasy fleet!)