UK Defence Forum

News, History, Discussions and Debates on UK Defence.

River Class (OPV) (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 30 Jul 2018, 07:59

Poiuytrewq wrote:The £400m to £500m sale price for the RB2's could be used to turbo charge the T31 programme, kick start the MHPC programme or modernise the Amphibious fleet.

Bit optimistic, Brazil bought three off us for £133 million at the beginning of the decade. Just because we paid through the roof for 5 crapply built vessels doesn't mean others will.

hovematlot wrote:I think the idea mooted by some of just 'bolting on' a CAPTAS winch etc is pie in the sky.

It is! Never has a small, slow, noisy patrol boat made a capable ASW escort.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 30 Jul 2018, 13:22

shark bait wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:The £400m to £500m sale price for the RB2's could be used to turbo charge the T31 programme, kick start the MHPC programme or modernise the Amphibious fleet.

Bit optimistic, Brazil bought three off us for £133 million at the beginning of the decade. Just because we paid through the roof for 5 crapply built vessels doesn't mean others will.
What is more, River B1 are already "more than half used". If we sell River B2s, we need to at least keep half of the money for near future River B1 replacement. We also need mid-life overhaul to them. Considering these factors, in addition to the fact that River B2 in sell will profit much less than what UK paid, I think it brings little to the fleet.

On the other hand, selling "one or two of them", keeping only the other 3 for UK use, will not require River B1 to be kept. I think Brazil may be interested in? Their Corvettes are decommissioning while replacement program is not on track. (But anyway, will not be high profit. Say, 120-150M GBP in total, I guess).
hovematlot wrote:I think the idea mooted by some of just 'bolting on' a CAPTAS winch etc is pie in the sky.
It is! Never has a small, slow, noisy patrol boat made a capable ASW escort.[/quote] Not sure. But, anyway RN must try it before actually rely on it.
- Being noisy is not killing on shallow water active multi-static ASW in busy water. Engaging distant cannot be long, and the environment is already noisy. See how Finnish navy and Swedish navy are trying to do shallow water ASW with a small VDS. If it is totally useless, they will not be doing so.
- Ship crack issue is real, but completely depend on "how much it is". Apparently these River B2 added with CAPTAS-1 will not be steaming at pace in a rough blue water. They will sneak around the shallow water, patrol the "entrance" of straits, and "keep the gate" of the ports.
- But it is 100% sure, these ships will never replace any T23ASW nor T26.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Ron5 » 30 Jul 2018, 16:07

I was under the impression that plane guard ships went out of style 50 years ago. Helicopters do a much better job these days.

Ron5
Senior Member
Posts: 3251
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
Location: United States of America

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Ron5 » 30 Jul 2018, 16:09

As the Treasury well knows, selling young ships and buying new replacements, is economically dumb.

You can try it with your car. It will cost you a lot of money and you wont be getting anywhere any quicker.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 30 Jul 2018, 16:25

Ron5 wrote:I was under the impression that plane guard ships went out of style 50 years ago. Helicopters do a much better job these days.
HMS Cornwall did it for USS JC Stennis on May 2007. I am not sure if the term "plane guard" is literally it, or just a name of the close-defense escort. But, it looks like it IS the plane guard.

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ations.jpg
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/ ... ations.jpg

[EDIT] See the file name.
1: British_frigate_HMS_Cornwall_approaches_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_John_C._Stennis_CVN_74_to_provide_plane_guard_support_to_the_carrier_during_flight_operations
2:British_frigate_HMS_Cornwall_approaches_Nimitz-class_aircraft_carrier_USS_John_C._Stennis_CVN_74_to_provide_plane_guard_support_to_the_carrier_during_flight_operations

User avatar
Repulse
Senior Member
Posts: 1341
Joined: 05 May 2015, 22:46
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 30 Jul 2018, 20:28

More speculation about that HMS Tyne is now flying the White Ensign and HMS Severn is going for a refit - fixes for HMS Forth could take 3+ months.

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-tyn ... ment-ship/

If the MDP is immediate cuts as expected, with jam tomorrow, and cuts of a few frigates, surely keeping the B1s and HMS Clyde (given free as payment for BAE screwups) active must be the right thing. I’d say protection of the EEZ (against a Cod War scenario) must be top on the threat list from next March. Base all 4 B1 / B1.5s + 2 B2 in the UK use the remaining 3 B2 for FIGS, WIGS and GiGS. Then give Appledore some work to build MHPC replacements :)
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 04 Aug 2018, 15:01

Update on River B2 modification plan.

This is the series of "Prepare for cuts."; What if T31e is canceled, and RN are forced to live with 6 T45, 8 (or 9 or 10) T26, and 4+5 OPVs?

River B2 is not a ship for warfighting, but it may be asked to cover anti-torrerists patrol (Red sea, Oman and East Med), even working along with CVTF as an "Aviso". In this case, 2 out of the 5 River B2 can be up-armed. But, this must be "very modest", because all here is coming in a case when "there is no money".

Proposed here is a River B2, added with 2 CIWS and a UAV hangar, added with RAS rig only on the port-side = River B2.5. I propose this design so that "all additional parts" can be easily ripped off in future, when those ship can go back to EEZ patrol roles.
river_b2p5.jpg
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 08:06

Repulse wrote:I’d say protection of the EEZ (against a Cod War scenario) must be top on the threat list

The RN is very busy bringing some of the biggest carriers in the world into service.

At the same time the RN is busy keeping tabs on increasing Russian submarine activity.

So yeah, lets sack that off and make fish the priority!
@LandSharkUK

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 08:08

donald_of_tokyo wrote:River B2 is not a ship for warfighting, but it may be asked to cover anti-torrerists patrol

Nope. Need a wildcat for that. Send a Bay.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Aug 2018, 08:34

shark bait wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:River B2 is not a ship for warfighting, but it may be asked to cover anti-torrerists patrol

Nope. Need a wildcat for that. Send a Bay.
Why not a UAV?
Bay is large and low damage control target. To keep terrorists away, it will need 4 or 5 Wildcats. It is good, but a different level of capability.

If enemy gets near, Bay will be a easy target to hit.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 08:46

How are you going to strap a few hard ass marines on a UAV to go a kick terrorist ass?

That role needs a helicopter that can move people, and preferably that old version of wildcat that has a big gun in the back!

The size difference makes it no more or less of a target, the River class is hardly a small stealthy vessel, neither is the Bay class, no difference. ISIS claim hits on smaller Egyptian naval craft, likewise Houthi rebels claim hits on a UAE ship a similar size to the river. Its an easy target regardless.
@LandSharkUK

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1737
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby abc123 » 07 Aug 2018, 09:33

2 Phalanx CIWS on a River? It reminds me of an old joke: How to double the value of your Yugo 45? By installing the radio in it. :lol:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Aug 2018, 10:13

shark bait wrote:How are you going to strap a few hard ass marines on a UAV to go a kick terrorist ass?

That role needs a helicopter that can move people, and preferably that old version of wildcat that has a big gun in the back!
Using Wildcat to a terrorits who may have MANPADS is not a good idea. You are thinking of very low level of threat, I'm afraid. Rather, anti-smuggler?
The size difference makes it no more or less of a target, the River class is hardly a small stealthy vessel, neither is the Bay class, no difference. ISIS claim hits on smaller Egyptian naval craft, likewise Houthi rebels claim hits on a UAE ship a similar size to the river. Its an easy target regardless.
Do not agree. Size matters a lot, not "regardless".
- For a simple ASM, radar cross section of Bay will be 5-10 times larger than that of River B2. Easy target.
- For an RPG, line-of-sight cross section will be 4-5 times larger. Easy target.
- For a fast boat, Bay as a sitting duck is much easier target than River B2 which is much more agile than Bay.

I am not saying, River B2 with CIWS can replace Bay. I am saying they will be sent to different theater. Bay is more anti-smuggler/HADR, and armed-River will be more Red-sea/Holms-strait.
abc123 wrote:2 Phalanx CIWS on a River? It reminds me of an old joke: How to double the value of your Yugo 45? By installing the radio in it. :lol:
If I were proposing "up armed River can cover GP frigate tasks", it is bulshit, I agree. I am saying, "what if we have a cut?"; RN only will have 6 T45 and 8 T26 and nothing else. This cut is a clear and present danger, 30% probability or even higher.

Even so, the idea might be not good. In that case, RN shall just simple abandon most of the standing tasks. Simple.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 10:29

donald_of_tokyo wrote:armed-River will be more Red-sea/Holms-strait.


What effect is that going to achieve?

At best an OPV + UAV is going to be able to sail around and defend itself, an effect that can be achieved much cheaper by never existing in the first place.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Aug 2018, 10:43

shark bait wrote:At best an OPV + UAV is going to be able to sail around and defend itself, an effect that can be achieved much cheaper by never existing in the first place.
Existing and not existing differs a lot, (To be or not to be). But, I think our discussion is now shifting out of the original issues.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 10:47

It isn't, the River class has Zero effect on that environment, it is pointless.
@LandSharkUK

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Aug 2018, 10:48

shark bait wrote:It isn't, the River class has Zero effect on that environment, it is pointless.
Do not agree. We agree we do not agree here, so I think it is OK. :D

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 10:53

So what effect does a CWIS and UAV have?
@LandSharkUK

Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 789
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 07 Aug 2018, 11:07

shark bait wrote:Nope. Need a wildcat for that. Send a Bay.
Sounds like a Job for a Tactical Bay.

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Bay is large and low damage control target. To keep terrorists away, it will need 4 or 5 Wildcats. It is good, but a different level of capability.
No problem, this Tactical Bay 176 Mk2 (High Threat) could fit in 4 or 5 Wildcats with room to spare for couple of Apaches. Add in the Mk8, 2x Phanlanx, 2x 30mm's and the 24 or 48 CAMM and those Terrorists are going to have a really bad day.
image.jpg


If 3 Wildcats would be enough why not use the Patrol Bay 155 Mk2 (High Threat).
image.jpg


In my view it is very simple. Sell the RB2's and build the Bay's..... (Sorry Donald)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 2536
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Location: Japan

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 07 Aug 2018, 11:09

Poiuytrewq wrote:In my view it is very simple. Sell the RB2's and build the Bay's..... (Sorry Donald)
?? The cost differs a lot. Tactical Bay, to my understanding, will cost 300-500M GBP at minimum. Selling River B2 will give us 70-100M GBP per hull. Far far away in cost.

User avatar
shark bait
Senior Member
Posts: 5289
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:18
Location: Pitcairn Island

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 07 Aug 2018, 11:14

That is a good solution, assuming it's harvest time at the magic money tree.

The Bay platform is a good fit, but I think you need to tone down the spec a bit.
@LandSharkUK

Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 789
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 07 Aug 2018, 11:30

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Selling River B2 will give us 70-100M GBP per hull
..SOLD... :thumbup:
Far far away in cost.
Far far away in capability.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1737
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby abc123 » 07 Aug 2018, 11:33

donald_of_tokyo wrote: I am saying, "what if we have a cut?"; RN only will have 6 T45 and 8 T26 and nothing else. This cut is a clear and present danger, 30% probability or even higher.



Yes, I understand that. Indeed, people here oftenly tend to forget how big danger these cuts present to the UK AF in general and RN in particular. The best case scenario is to stay on current numbers. No, there will be no more money for defence, except to cover some holes, maybe. Realistic scenario is to loose one Type 45 or even two ( can't be manned anyway and you need to pay for repair ) and probably one or two Type 23 ( can't be manned anyway ). Doomsday scenario, selling the POW, one Albion and retiring all Type 23 GP and cancelling Type 31 as a replacement or maybe even not ordering last two Type 26.... About probabilities, I would rate them as 30%, 40% and 30%.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

Poiuytrewq
Member
Posts: 789
Joined: 15 Dec 2017, 10:25
Location: United Kingdom

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 07 Aug 2018, 11:34

shark bait wrote:The Bay platform is a good fit, but I think you need to tone down the spec a bit.
The concept comes in Low, Medium and High Threat configurations so something for every budget.

I will post all the specs over in fantasy.

abc123
Senior Member
Posts: 1737
Joined: 10 May 2015, 18:15

Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby abc123 » 07 Aug 2018, 12:03

Poiuytrewq wrote:
shark bait wrote:The Bay platform is a good fit, but I think you need to tone down the spec a bit.
The concept comes in Low, Medium and High Threat configurations so something for every budget.

I will post all the specs over in fantasy.


Or simply just buy Absalon instead?
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…


Return to “Royal Navy”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests