River Class (OPV) (RN)

[jedibeeftrix]

i'm not advocating the idea of permanently basing a B2+ in S'pore, but the logic might be similar to having one in the Gulf:

A locally based 'transit' escort in an economic chokepoint, with a number of roles:
1. Companion-escort to tail a convoy at times of heightened tension (with a T31).
2. Companion-escort to provide additional security for a transiting RN group.
3. In-theater Intelligence by providing eyes on site in important transit chokepoints.
4. In-theatre Security/Presence as part of our work with Allies.

It was noted when Iran detained tankers that surging a T23 based on the threat was the best we could do, and that even a GP frigate could not provide proper security for a rolling convoy on UK flagged vessels transiting back and forth.

In future a T31 with a 'Companion' escort in the form of a 40mm B2+ might be a more capable (yet affordable) response.

This logic 'might' hold for S'Pore too...

[Qwerty]

Comment removed / Kommentar entfernt

[donald_of_tokyo]

What does sending a patrol boat to Singapore achieve?

It's nothing, the British contingent will be an insignificant compared to a city state operates the region, and it sure as hell doesn't make the Brits look like a tough guy in front of China.

All it does it make the British look like a sad little nation trying to cling on to fetish for the empire.

Why you think Asia as a whole?

To enable "the Brits look like a tough guy in front of China", an escort does not help, either. Chinese navy is much larger than RN, sorry to say. And, RN cannot send majority of their asset to this district. So, compare "a small fraction of RN" vs "the full-set of Chinese Navy". Zero impression. China's ASM batteries can sink a RN escort in 10 minutes, if you walk into South China sea = within the range of those ballistic ASM and long-range cruise ASM. If UK want to put something "non negligible", you need at least 2 T45 added with BMD missiles, 2 T26s, a Wave/Tide, and two SSNs. This is "non negligible" I agree.

The problem here is, UK virtually shows no flag at all in this district. This is UK's choice after 2010. To come back, even two OPV is a big big difference. And I think UK is now thinking about this. An escort is better, but never game changing = do not add much.

Other than China, there are many places = Asia/Pacific is vastly huge district. Again, current UK message is "I have NO interest in Asia/Pacific". With 2 OPVs, UK says "I do have interests, and if you sink them, I will send the CVTF".

[serge750]

The way I look at it ( probably wrongly! ) maybe they are trying to establish a presence with the river b2 ( as we have so few frigates aswell ) to see if it rocks the boat ( no pun intended ) then when the T31 "patrol frigates" are availiable replace the rivers ?

[Jake1992]

For me this is where a “black Swan” style Murillo mission sloop would be perfect.
A design that is evolved from the RB2 class to operate off board systems from mcm to littoral ASW and survey.
These would offer a better aid to allies in the area while still not rising tensions.

[SW1]

I remain in continued bafflement of why Asia Pacific engagement is viewed exclusively thru a the prism of the navy. The Brunei garrison remains in position for example not to mention the utility of air exercises.

It is not the UKs job to provide or be a leading player in the Far East it is not our home. We have allies primarily our 5 eyes and 5 powers ones who we have a duty to provide collective support to, both with shared intel, diplomacy, trade and militarily if necessary though there all very capable. Ultimately they are our primary means of finding out what’s going on in their back yard.

Crisis always bring an acceleration of trends and with appetite more than ever for near shoring manufacture and critical supplies where i suspect the likes of Eastern Europe, turkey, Egypt and Morocco will see a number of economic benefits as Western European nations reconfigure supply chains over time.

I suspect our engagement with the Far East will increasingly be thru the digital and services medium.

There is plenty of tasks and areas much closer to home where opvs would be of much better value.

[ArmChairCivvy]

the Far East [it] is not our home. We have allies primarily our 5 eyes and 5 powers ones who we have a duty to provide collective support to

and we can start right now, by buying Australian beef
- it can all be frozen and be shipped to arrive in Jan

Barley would also be on offer... we still have brewers (though are they selling while pubs are closed?)

[SW1]

the Far East [it] is not our home. We have allies primarily our 5 eyes and 5 powers ones who we have a duty to provide collective support to

and we can start right now, by buying Australian beef
- it can all be frozen and be shipped to arrive in Jan

Barley would also be on offer... we still have brewers (though are they selling while pubs are closed?)

Kwiks can send all the produce from the Marlborough region too any thing red! Would complement the beef!

[Caribbean]

In future a T31 with a 'Companion' escort in the form of a 40mm B2+ might be a more capable (yet affordable) response.

Particularly when you consider that between them, the two ships could potentially deploy four or five manned/ autonomous RHIBs and a helicopter (as well as a significant EMF - useful for placing security teams on tankers in transit).

[Repulse]

Personally, I would not base two B2s in Singapore, but have one operating off the Horn of Africa based in Oman. This would then be the permanent contribution in the fight against piracy in the region and act as a secondary vessels (like the MCMs) to escort tankers etc through the Gulf when tensions are heightened.

I am amused by furore of basing a B2 in Singapore. I suspect that the same people will have the same view towards the quiet diplomacy (and hush hush surveillance / survey ops) the Echos have been doing for years. Yes there is real value in a “global” world to have a mobile Multirole naval asset in the region - no its not to fight the Chinese.

Before we start to worry about our penis sizes, we should remember that the size of our balls will be measured by CEPP; it needs to be as sizeable and hard as possible, otherwise everything that people worry about will come true. I am more worried about wasting £300mn+ on a T31 and put it in Singapore, pretending it gives anything more meaningful than an OPV.

[RichardIC]

I couldn't agree more with Sharkbait's post at the top of this page.

We keep an OPV in the South Atlantic because we have citizens there to protect and support. Ditto the Caribbean.

That doesn't apply to Singapore, and BTW, has anyone wondered what the Government of Singapore may have to say about the idea?

[shark bait]

All of this talk, and no one has stated what real benefit a patrol vessel in Singapore achieves.

I think that because it doesn't achieve anything, other than mere tokenism.

If building anything in that region, it should be logistics. Being that far from home is difficult, so it would be beneficial if the Navy could cosy up with an ally in the region to build a logistical capability only. This will benefit the British assets engaging around the Indo-Pacific region more frequently, and could even be used to help out allies in the east.

[Qwerty]

and BTW, has anyone wondered what the Government of Singapore may have to say about the idea?

If they’re not in approval, would the deployment still occur?

[Qwerty]

Here’s the Written evidence from June 2019 as to why the U.K. is going to Asia/Pacific.


http://data.parliament.uk/writteneviden ... 103172.pdf

[Repulse]

All of this talk, and no one has stated what real benefit a patrol vessel in Singapore achieves.

Singapore would be it’s base, but it’s operational area will be from the eastern part of the Indian Ocean to the Western Pacific.

What are the benefits for what is likely < £10mn a year:
1) Training: giving the RN experience in operating with allies in waters that are rarely visited, but likely to be a flash point in the near future.
2) Surveillance: ability to gain local intelligence and perform tasks such as surveying waters (possibly using Drones) where the CBG or SSNs operate.
3) Diplomacy: flying the flag and building permanent regional relationships, without trying to act as a mini superpower
4) Contribution towards anti-piracy and anti-terrorism operations
5) Supporting the freedom of navigation. It’s not a frigate, but can still make a statement
6) Recruitment “boost” - return of join the navy and see the world.

[SW1]

All of this talk, and no one has stated what real benefit a patrol vessel in Singapore achieves.

I think that because it doesn't achieve anything, other than mere tokenism.

If building anything in that region, it should be logistics. Being that far from home is difficult, so it would be beneficial if the Navy could cosy up with an ally in the region to build a logistical capability only. This will benefit the British assets engaging around the Indo-Pacific region more frequently, and could even be used to help out allies in the east.

Yep exactly this considering also that Singapore and Malaysia are operators of a330mrtt and a400m respectfully, having logistics capacity available as your fwd deployed units allows for the most part support to allies while allowing deployment of combat forces if ever required.

With actual requirements in the Caribbean, Falklands, Gibraltar and with shadowing in UK waters River class have plenty of tasks were multiple vessels could used rather than running round south east Asia.

[Repulse]

If building anything in that region, it should be logistics.

Having a RFA Tanker / AOR based EoS as part of a LSG is probable, but the running costs are at least twice that of a River.

[RichardIC]

Singapore would be it’s base

Have you checked Singapore is cool with that?

AOR based EoS as part of a LSG

Ermmm?

[Repulse]

Have you checked Singapore is cool with that?

No, but they’ve been relaxed by recent visits by HMS Enterprise. I see them having more of an issue with a (paper) frigate than a OPV.

Ermmm?

RFA Fort Victoria

[RichardIC]

No, but they’ve been relaxed by recent visits by HMS Enterprise. I see them having more of an issue with a (paper) frigate than a OPV.

"No" it is then.

[Repulse]

"No" it is then.

Correct, I’ll be writing to them later as that’s how it works...

We are part of the FPDA, so hardly a return of the Empire, more of a commitment statement.

[abc123]

What does sending a patrol boat to Singapore achieve?

It's nothing, the British contingent will be an insignificant compared to a city state operates the region, and it sure as hell doesn't make the Brits look like a tough guy in front of China.

All it does it make the British look like a sad little nation trying to cling on to fetish for the empire.

Why you think Asia as a whole?

To enable "the Brits look like a tough guy in front of China", an escort does not help, either. Chinese navy is much larger than RN, sorry to say. And, RN cannot send majority of their asset to this district. So, compare "a small fraction of RN" vs "the full-set of Chinese Navy". Zero impression. China's ASM batteries can sink a RN escort in 10 minutes, if you walk into South China sea = within the range of those ballistic ASM and long-range cruise ASM. If UK want to put something "non negligible", you need at least 2 T45 added with BMD missiles, 2 T26s, a Wave/Tide, and two SSNs. This is "non negligible" I agree.

The problem here is, UK virtually shows no flag at all in this district. This is UK's choice after 2010. To come back, even two OPV is a big big difference. And I think UK is now thinking about this. An escort is better, but never game changing = do not add much.

Other than China, there are many places = Asia/Pacific is vastly huge district. Again, current UK message is "I have NO interest in Asia/Pacific". With 2 OPVs, UK says "I do have interests, and if you sink them, I will send the CVTF".

Trouble is, the UK has no interest in Far East. It it isn't so, the RN would have more to send there than two OPVs (and even that is a stretch, with UK and Gibraltar and W. Indies and Falklands and Pirates off Somalia all begging to have RN Rivers there).
On the other hand, what UKs interest is really endangered there? Piracy? There are Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia to sort that. Allmost all of it happens in their territorial waters. Or you want to put them in same group with Somalia?
Free sailing of UK ships? I don't think that anybody hinders that? Helping Australia, that will have more T26 and subs than UK with two OPVs? Right. Sorting PNG and Solomons? Australian backyard, their responsability. Somebody is jeopardising the UK citizens- and states there don't want to do anything? Hardly.
Playing young Robin to US Batman against China? Good luck with that... Plus, Australia allready took that role.

Anyway, face it, UK's interests are from Atlantic and Mediterranean to Persian Gulf. And even that is a mighty stretch for UKs capabilities. I'm not sure that if the RN limited itself to just work in the North Atlantic it would be strong enough. And now you want to add Pacific?

[abc123]

"No" it is then.

We are part of the FPDA, so hardly a return of the Empire, more of a commitment statement.

FPDA?
If memory serves me right, that's against Suharto's Indonesia and Konfrontasi?
The only game in the region there is China. And that's it. If you want to send UK forces there to contain/fight China, OK that's your right. But I don't think that's the best choice for the UK. Especially in this weak state. When UK has proper tools, that's something completely different.

[shark bait]

What are the benefits for what is likely

All very woolly, the kinda stuff that could be applied to anything. Reality is there is not specific threat to counter, and no tangible benefit to the UK basing a patrol boat in Singapore.

The real threat to stability in the region is China's overlapping territorial expansion, and its worth remembering Singapore has no dispute here, and also make a lot of money off China, so does not want to be seen to be taking sides.

This means not only is there little beneficial to the UK, I don't think Singapore would see it a beneficial either.

[abc123]

What are the benefits for what is likely

All very woolly, the kinda stuff that could be applied to anything. Reality is there is not specific threat to counter, and no tangible benefit to the UK basing a patrol boat in Singapore.

The real threat to stability in the region is China's overlapping territorial expansion, and its worth remembering Singapore has no dispute here, and also make a lot of money off China, so does not want to be seen to be taking sides.

This means not only is there little beneficial to the UK, I don't think Singapore would see it a beneficial either.

Plus, 3/4 of Singapure's population are Chinese.