River Class (OPV) (RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote:and 50 troops plus with its Crane it can carry up to two 11 m Unmanned USV's
50 sounds a lot, compared to real escorts (on which a sq. ft for accommodation would, sure, be pricier simply because the total price includes so many expensive things over and above an OPV fit)?

Out of interest, can that crane lift LCVPs off the working deck?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:can that crane lift LCVPs off the working deck?
IIRC, HMS Clyde was supposed to be able to do that (along with an overload capacity of a 110-person EMF) - no idea whether it ever did, however. The Batch 2's have a 16-tonne crane vs the 25-tonne crane of the B1's, though
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Caribbean wrote:overload capacity of a 110-person EMF
Overload is of course something that has never been defined - even for our amphibs, though such numbers are often quoted.

30-36 for non-compliant boarding teams - the number to allow for shifts in readiness and resting.
- if the build standard is to NS3 that is where it all stops

If the build standard is close to NS2 (like escorts), then the ships would make for ideal platforms also for beach recce parties, very much an on and off job description :!:
- up to 50 EMF
- these parties would be boarded for a lesser duration, typically
- and here the LCVP question might be of importance, though a 7 tonne, 35 knot vessel might be even better for that kind of job: http://www.marinealutech.com/boats/land ... tercat_m11
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Saw HMS Trent sail out of Falmouth this morning - beautiful ships.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Repulse wrote:Saw HMS Trent sail out of Falmouth this morning - beautiful ships.
I've been to Falmouth on a vacation to England a few years ago. Looked around the castle. Lovely town and area. Would be very happy living there.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Repulse wrote:Saw HMS Trent sail out of Falmouth this morning - beautiful ships.
Yep, the only pity is that they have been down-gunned from https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0904/ ... 1513111329
the original issue of out-of-area gunboats
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Happy to be challenged, but by my count, the River class is the most successful export class for the UK between the Leander and what will be the T26.

Would be great to see an enhanced third batch, which I believe the RN should be seriously considering, but also something where the UK could give loans to fund the builds for smaller nations - building its global connections.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Repulse wrote:the River class is the most successful export class
There are so many derivatives, how many classes back do you count (strictly speaking the Rivers are the derivatives, that way round, but you know what I mean)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by jedibeeftrix »

Repulse wrote:Happy to be challenged, but by my count, the River class is the most successful export class for the UK between the Leander and what will be the T26.

Would be great to see an enhanced third batch, which I believe the RN should be seriously considering, but also something where the UK could give loans to fund the builds for smaller nations - building its global connections.
i agree it is great at what it is, particularly the B2...

...but i'd sell them all - as they're a danger to the possibility of building a new sloop based on Venari/MCM.

i'd rather build a lot of something that is suitable for the MCM role (which the rivers are not - as they are not designed for lateral maneurvering in a constricted channel).

so - for once - get the beenfit of economies of scale, and buy 16x Venari (with 8x offboard kit systems), using the barebones hulls for the MHCP(F) roles.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Repulse wrote:the River class is the most successful export class
There are so many derivatives, how many classes back do you count (strictly speaking the Rivers are the derivatives, that way round, but you know what I mean)?
Good question - was just going for the B1, B1.5, Amazonas, Krabi and B2 derivations.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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jedibeeftrix wrote:...but i'd sell them all - as they're a danger to the possibility of building a new sloop based on Venari/MCM.
I can see the point, and have argued similarly that a MHPC Sloop should be part of the future RN fleet, however with the choice of T31 and the broader financial backdrop I think the dream of a new class has died.

Going forwards I think there will much less new class innovation for the RN (maybe restricted to the top tier) and more evolutionary (low risk) changes to existing (OTS) designs.

To keep and extend on the River class is probably the best hope for a RN MHPC Sloop. For example, how about removing the crane on the B2 design and replacing it with a mission bay capable of 2 x Ribs and 2 x larger USVs on davits (one of each port and starboard) with space to squeeze a Widlcat / UAV down the middle, could be one option. By limiting the changes, the risk is managed and keeps commonality with the other ships.

I heard New Zealand may be up for new OPVs - they looked at the River class, but turned it down I understand due to the lack of aviation facilities.
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Repulse wrote:Amazonas, Krabi
A second 'Krabi' is being built in Thailand ... adds to the tally (quick!) before we change the criteria to tonnage or some other
- how to measure the T26 exports?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Caribbean wrote:overload capacity of a 110-person EMF
Overload is of course something that has never been defined - even for our amphibs, though such numbers are often quoted.

30-36 for non-compliant boarding teams - the number to allow for shifts in readiness and resting.
- if the build standard is to NS3 that is where it all stops

If the build standard is close to NS2 (like escorts), then the ships would make for ideal platforms also for beach recce parties, very much an on and off job description :!:
- up to 50 EMF
- these parties would be boarded for a lesser duration, typically
- and here the LCVP question might be of importance, though a 7 tonne, 35 knot vessel might be even better for that kind of job: http://www.marinealutech.com/boats/land ... tercat_m11
As said the B2 River could carry 5 ORC plus a TEU for up to 2 camcopter sized UAV . So if it was looking to put a 40 strong raiding party ashore using the UAV to recon and give eyes on for the ships command and the 5 ORC to put the troops ashore. The troops them self could carry up to 10 Hero 120 allowing them independent eyes and strike over the horizon

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Tempest414 wrote: put a 40 strong raiding party ashore
That's OK, the clearance frogmen (in the beach recce party) can swim... they won't mind :lol:
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
Tempest414 wrote: put a 40 strong raiding party ashore
That's OK, the clearance frogmen (in the beach recce party) can swim... they won't mind :lol:
A 40 strong raiding party could be 4 sections of 8 = 32 plus a frog team of 8 using 5 ORC

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

Do you happen to know why the crane capacity was derated from the previous design (normally the reach is similarly impacted?)?
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

Maybe they saw no need for a 25 ton crane as they did not think the RN would want to put a LCVP on a River class however with unmanned kit getting bigger it could of been a poor choice

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Where is the so called 25t crane on River B1s?

I can see a compact crane with narrower footprint on HMS Tyne than the 16t crane of River B2. Looking at other 15t cranes on other vessels, e.g. Singapore Endurance LSD, River B2’s 16t crane looks normal.

Not sure, but cannot see a crane with enough power and reach to hold a LCVP on River B1s.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Where is the so called 25t crane on River B1s?
A good point. I posted something that I had read before, but, on combing through photos (such a hardship :D ), it does seem that the B2s have more substantial cranes than the B1's (maybe they have to reach further and the 16t is at max reach?) and, interestingly that HMS Clyde (which was the one that was supposedly built with the ability to load and deploy an LCVP from it's flight deck), actually has no crane at all!

There's a FITV video here that gives a good view of the flight deck of HMS Clyde in the first few minutes https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_o3PhxlK5I and I can't see any crane (another white dome seems to have taken it's place). Possibly the concept proved impractical in FI waters and the crane was removed at some point (during the Simonstown refit, perhaps).
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Caribbean wrote:....16t is at max reach?
I thought this was designed to meet the maximum ISO criteria?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

The final ship of River B2 OPVs are coming....


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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Ah that shiny new ship smell :D

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

from ""

"HMS Tamar arrived in Plymouth Sound this morning. At anchor and embarking Royal Marines via landing craft"

Interesting size comparison of LCVP Mk.5 and River B2.

LCVP Mk.5
- standard displacement 16t, full load 23t
- 15.3m long and 4.3m wide
I understand, in principle, LCVP Mk.5 could be carried on her flight deck (at least if in light condition?).
Though I agree the crane power shall be increased to at least 20t or so.

Image

For comparison (from twitter @Pugachove), LCVP hang points,
Image
and from Gabriele-san's blog (originally from BAES movie) to see crane's reach.
Image

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