River Class (OPV) (RN)

[SW1]

No it gets far more than just as helicopter, instead of trying to get one ship to do it all and the crew of an RFA plus an opv is probably still less than a frigate.

yes but the over all cost would be 2 or 3 time as much

Cost 2 or 3 times as much as what?

[Poiuytrewq]

No it gets far more than just as helicopter, instead of trying to get one ship to do it all and the crew of an RFA plus an opv is probably still less than a frigate.

yes but the over all cost would be 2 or 3 time as much

It's a good idea and both vessels would compliment each other, especially on APT(N) type deployments but realistically one or other would just get cut eventually.

The hanger is essential for overseas deployments IMO but I would also keep the flightdeck Wildcat, NH90 and Merlin capable to ensure maximum versatility.

[Tempest414]

No it gets far more than just as helicopter, instead of trying to get one ship to do it all and the crew of an RFA plus an opv is probably still less than a frigate.

yes but the over all cost would be 2 or 3 time as much

Cost 2 or 3 times as much as what?

2 ships 2 crews say 160 , 80 RFA and 80 RN will cost 2 or 3 times as much as say a Type 31 with 100 crew plus 50 others =150

[SW1]

No it gets far more than just as helicopter, instead of trying to get one ship to do it all and the crew of an RFA plus an opv is probably still less than a frigate.

yes but the over all cost would be 2 or 3 time as much

Cost 2 or 3 times as much as what?

2 ships 2 crews say 160 , 80 RFA and 80 RN will cost 2 or 3 times as much as say a Type 31 with 100 crew plus 50 others =150

Wouldn’t think so rfa personnel likely cheaper than service personnel from a cost perspective. Even in your analysis numbers are roughly similar so see no reason for the assumed big cost delta.

[Repulse]

I’d say the RFA Argus / HMS Medway deployment has shown the flexibility of such a configuration. What’s more it’s scalable in that you could add more B2s and cover a wider area. Lastly, an RFA like Argus can deploy a mixture of 4 Merlins or 5 Apaches or 6 Wildcats...

Having a Patrol ship (B2) capable of operating with land or RFA based aviation is a great asset and fits in with what seems to be a low level RN Global Presence strategy - the only issue is that it needs a bigger gun

[donald_of_tokyo]

Delay in T26-batch2 order is a nightmare, which MUST NOT HAPPEN. But, the same "must-not-happen" thing took place in 2013. Then, what is the worst-worst is, NOT PREPARING FOR IT, I guess.

However we are now in a better place in that BAE have the Leander concept in sizes 99 to 120 meter which in my mind they should keep warm and turning it over to keep it ready

What a mess we'd have made of things if another T26 delay meant that BAE had to knock out a couple of Leanders to keep the yard busy...we'd have 3 classes of Frigates as a result...

It would be very interesting to know the price difference between a 105m Leander vs an RB3 with identical armament,sensors,propulsion etc.

Interesting if we set the requirement for a 105 meter ship with a hangar for wildcat ops and a simple armament of say 2 x 40mm or 1 x 57mm and 1 x 40mm with a crew of 75 working 1.5 so 50 at anyone time plus helicopter or mission crew which way BAE would go River or Leander

On the possible River B1 replacements, say "River B1-R".

As River B2 is good at EEZ patrol, they can do home-water EEZ/fishery tasks quit well (=efficiently), to replace the River B1s. --> 3 River B2 for Britain island's EEZ

As Falkland and Med have a good land-based air-cover, River B2 (if needed, slightly up-armed), will work well there. --> 2 River B2 for Falkland and Med

So, it is Caribbean and possible "east of Suez", and one extra hull in long maintenance.

In this case, the "River B1-R" will be made of 3 hulls, and they will need
- a hangar (for Wildcat), with Merlin capable flight deck.
- good range and as low as possible crew size (say 50 onboard x1.5 = 75, as Tempest414-san suggests)
- ~70 additional accommodation for disaster relief team (River B2 already has 50)
- and some level of HADR assets, shall be modest, say, 6-10 20ft-containers, and/or with a small LCVP.

An OPV will never replace a Bay or Argus in HADR role. But, compared with current summer APT-N (a River B2 + a Bay or Argus), a larger "River B1-R" can be combined with a PSV or RoRo ship, both could be chartered cheaply.

This 3 "River B1-R" could be of Leander design-based, may be of 102 mm version (better be 105m or so). But it must be built to OPV-hull (not frigate) standard and with modest armaments. A 40mm 3P (or 57 mm) + 2x minigun will be enough, while keeping the SAM silo open for "FFBNW CAMM" (for export). (Want LMM launchers, though). With the hull standard similar to Al Khareef corvette, and with much less armaments, 3 will be ok with £440M. Note, it will include significant amount of internal re-design (container space, longer range, etc). But, it is needed, if BAES want to promote Leander for export.

[Aethulwulf]

HMS Medway, or indeed any of the River class, has not yet fired their 30mm gun in anger.

A 57mm main gun might be better for aesthetic or psychological impact (mostly on members of this forum), but any practical value for their roles in UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters is close to nil.

[Ron5]

But it must be built to OPV-hull (not frigate) standard and with modest armaments

This is the answer to Leander or developed River. Leander is designed to frigate standards with appropriate damage control etc. Rivers are not. The price differential is significant.

[Ron5]

HMS Medway, or indeed any of the River class, has not yet fired their 30mm gun in anger.

A 57mm main gun might be better for aesthetic or psychological impact (mostly on members of this forum), but any practical value for their roles in UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters is close to nil.

Specious argument. If you removed weapon systems that haven't "been fired in anger" from RN ships, they would all be mostly unarmed. Subs without torpedoes, carriers without aircraft, frigates without Merlins etc.

By the way, this discussion of up arming the Rivers is based on two factors: firstly the apparent desire of the MoD to send the Rivers on frigate type deployments and secondly

Speaking at DSEI in September 2019, RN Commander Operations, Rear Admiral Paul Halton said: “We are thinking about how we might enhance the lethality of the Batch II OPVs”

[Aethulwulf]

HMS Medway, or indeed any of the River class, has not yet fired their 30mm gun in anger.

A 57mm main gun might be better for aesthetic or psychological impact (mostly on members of this forum), but any practical value for their roles in UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters is close to nil.

Specious argument. If you removed weapon systems that haven't "been fired in anger" from RN ships, they would all be mostly unarmed. Subs without torpedoes, carriers without aircraft, frigates without Merlins etc.

By the way, this discussion of up arming the Rivers is based on two factors: firstly the apparent desire of the MoD to send the Rivers on frigate type deployments and secondly

Speaking at DSEI in September 2019, RN Commander Operations, Rear Admiral Paul Halton said: “We are thinking about how we might enhance the lethality of the Batch II OPVs”

Not really. The opposition forces for the OPVs are fish stealing, drug smugglers or people smugglers. Ok, for the last two roles the UK used to deploy frigates but that was always overkill.

The RN's flirtation with up arming the OPVs was a study looking at the possibility of deployment outside UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters, where even the addition of a 57mm and some LMM would still leave them at risk.

[Tempest414]

And NATO has not fired a anti ship missile in anger so lets all pack em up . it is this attitude that will see us wanting come that moment there is a need for a weapon that can do more than 30mm. there is only one reason the B2's are fitted with a 30mm and that is at this time until 40mm and 57mm come in with Type 31 the next gun up in service is the 4.5"

[Ron5]

HMS Medway, or indeed any of the River class, has not yet fired their 30mm gun in anger.

A 57mm main gun might be better for aesthetic or psychological impact (mostly on members of this forum), but any practical value for their roles in UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters is close to nil.

Specious argument. If you removed weapon systems that haven't "been fired in anger" from RN ships, they would all be mostly unarmed. Subs without torpedoes, carriers without aircraft, frigates without Merlins etc.

By the way, this discussion of up arming the Rivers is based on two factors: firstly the apparent desire of the MoD to send the Rivers on frigate type deployments and secondly

Speaking at DSEI in September 2019, RN Commander Operations, Rear Admiral Paul Halton said: “We are thinking about how we might enhance the lethality of the Batch II OPVs”

Not really. The opposition forces for the OPVs are fish stealing, drug smugglers or people smugglers. Ok, for the last two roles the UK used to deploy frigates but that was always overkill.

The RN's flirtation with up arming the OPVs was a study looking at the possibility of deployment outside UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters, where even the addition of a 57mm and some LMM would still leave them at risk.

Yes really: specious argument.

Look at the armament of other countries coastguard ships. Like the US. That may surprise you. They're armed for what might happen, not what usually does. Same as all warships.

And yes, deploying Rivers for frigate duties is exactly what's being discussed. Up arming them clearly doesn't remove all risk, has anyone said that? But risk is lessened.

[Repulse]

A 57mm main gun might be better for aesthetic or psychological impact (mostly on members of this forum), but any practical value for their roles in UK, Caribbean, Mediterranean or South Atlantic waters is close to nil.

But their roles are not the simple replacement for the B1s that were the original expectation. If it was just Fisheries, FIPS and APT(N) (or WIPS) then fine, but at least in the next decade it will be more.

Three B2s have and will be purposed for the Med and EoS. I’d argue that the East end of the Med is warmer than the West end and likely to get more so - not that it will be hot, but less predictable. For these, a small amount of “up arming” is justified.

[Aethulwulf]

Over the last few years, Echo and Enterprise have both been deployed to the Mediterranean on migrant patrol and freedom of navigation exercises in the Black Sea. They only have a 20mm main gun.

Does anyone really expect any conflict at sea to be settled by gun fire exchanges between surface ships?

There are far better things for the RN to invest its limited resources in than up arming OPVs. They are not warships, in the sense they are not designed to go into harms way. Adding a bigger gun doesn't really change that fact. They don't have the sensor suite or C&C resources/crew to maintain a full surface or air picture 24/7.

[Tempest414]

Over the last few years, Echo and Enterprise have both been deployed to the Mediterranean on migrant patrol and freedom of navigation exercises in the Black Sea. They only have a 20mm main gun.

There are far better things for the RN to invest its limited resources in than up arming OPVs.

Yes the Echo's have been all over and they are only armed with 2 x 20mm plus small arm's and we have got away with it due to a some what more peaceful time but now tec is starting to come in that allow grey forces to attack ships in less likely places I would argue that if we are going to continue to send the Echo's on these duties they also need to be up armed to 40mm. For me at least 2 of the B2's need to be given 40mm with 3P and all 5 should get a UAV to allow eyes on for ships command when conducting boarding ops and other duties

[bobp]

There are far better things for the RN to invest its limited resources in than up arming OPVs.

Agree with that. Spend some money on Helicopters as there are not enough to go round, to cover the various tasks.

[Lord Jim]

For the size of the Fleet we have enough Helicopters. The CSG will have around 8 Merlin HM2, 3 to 4 Merlin/CROWSNEST, 3 to 4 Merlin HC4s and between 2 and 4 Wildcats embarked during a major deployment. These will be spread out between the Carrier , Escorts and Auxiliaries. That leaves sufficient for training, one or two singleton deployments and the servicing and maintenance programmes.

If we are going to use the B2 rivers in the role they were designed for including overseas in benign areas then its current armament configuration is more than adequate, but any deployments in areas where there may be persons with a level of hostile intent then this is not the case. two or three hostile speedboats equipped with heavy machine gins and RPGs would be difficult for a B2 River to handle without taking damage, possibly major.

So as long as the Government and Navy keep them out of harms way everything will be fine.

[SW1]

I would assume the rivers have 30mm because that is the small calibre gun of choice across the fleet. If the rest the fleet change I assume the rivers will too, after all the Castle class started off with 40mm what’s old may well be new they also had an eavesdropping system too.

I would be more interested in trialing various things with them like the canadians and others are doing with similar vessels.

[J. Tattersall]

two or three hostile speedboats equipped with heavy machine gins and RPGs would be difficult for a B2 River to handle without taking damage, possibly major.

Well if I was in a speed boat I don't think I'd be very confident facing its 30mm Bushmaster, and with the River being a much more stable platform than a speed boat i think I'd be likely to be also effectively outranged, outgunned and well and truly dealt with by its 20mm Oerlikon, chain guns, or even GPMGs, before I got to effective range of my machine gun or RPG. You can bet that the upper deck gun crews will be well drilled for this eventuality, and the OOW will be manoeuvring the ship hard.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Chuck Hill (on his blog) ran thru the alternatives for arming maritime security type of vessels, and had this observation to make - still relevant, though written in 2012:
"If the Phalanx has a ship stopping ability not available in the 57 mm and the RAM, that needs to be replaced, the Mk 38 mod2 is a likely candidate for the job. This mount is already in use in the Coast Guard. It is planned as the primary weapon for the Webber class and as a secondary weapon for the Offshore Patrol Cutter. This weapon can fire an armor piercing discarding sabot round (APDS-T) that may have the ability to penetrate the side of a merchant ship and continue on to damage its engines or steering gear. I don’t know if this round is in the Coast Guard, or even the Navy’s inventory. I believe it is used by the Marines."
- the point being that aside Somali pirate boats, the purpose to sink is rare compared to the need to stop a non-compliant vessel; which might be by far bigger ... just makes the job easier as the engine room will be level with the gun mount

57 overkill; 25/30 just right (with rounds suited for the purpose).

The added bonus is that if harassing boats (swarming) is a threat, it is not beyond possibilities to add more mounts (all using the same supply for rounds).

[J. Tattersall]

The added bonus is that if harassing boats (swarming) is a threat, it is not beyond possibilities to add more mounts (all using the same supply for rounds).

Indeed. I have to say I've nothing against 57mm on Rivers I just don't think it's needed for the B2s' current role and money spent up-arming it is money that might better be spent on the rest of the fleet.

[Scimitar54]

Robbing every ship of it’s ha’porth of tar is what is really going on here! We have some good ships, even if there are far too few of them. What is inexcusable is the penny pinching that is leading to inadequate or insufficient weapon types and size and load-outs of VLS Systems. If you are going to go to the trouble of up-arming a River B2, then make it count and fit a 57mm gun. What is needed is funding to adequately arm our “men of war”. The “ I’d rather spend the money on something else” response just shows how far out of hand things have got.

[J. Tattersall]

If you are going to go to the trouble of up-arming a River B2, then make it count and fit a 57mm gun.

...and I thought we'd finally come to conclusion that they don't need up-arming?

[RichardIC]

...and I thought we'd finally come to conclusion that they don't need up-arming

err... no.

[ArmChairCivvy]

Suitable calibre (for current taskings) and uparming (from the current base version) are slightly different questions.
- ability to quickly uparm when taskings change is guaranteed as the mags were designed in from outset (did link to such an x-ray picture when the design had been decided on - there's a mag even for helicopters' torps. Note the plural: acting as a lilly pad to refuel and rearm many, to cut down the transfer times from the area where they are needed... which can change quickly, so no need to detach a destroyer/ frigate from the MTF)