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River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Tempest414
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 03 May 2019, 09:04

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:Nice piece on UKDJ site on the work being done on HMS Seven at A&P
Extensive upkeep work has been done. Is her fate after 2020 been decided or there are still possibilities to be sold on 2020?


Who really knows right now with a change at the top but given the work being done my guess and it is only a guess is that with the escort fleet mostly in life EX I think we will the B1's stay until 2023 freeing up the B2's to under take overseas deployments

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Poiuytrewq » 16 May 2019, 16:57


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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 16 May 2019, 17:46

I was wondering how hard would it be to put 2 small hangers either side of the crane just behind the RHIBs, something similar in size to an ISO container for UVA operations ( 1 as a hanger the other as a control room ) ?

I was just thinking it could make them more flexible for a relative cheap amount.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 17 May 2019, 06:47

As said before there is a great video on youtube of a B2 river testing Camcopter S100 out of ISO containers just put in Camcopter S-100 test Brasil some good shots of the ship at about 3.30 in

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 May 2019, 15:19

Poiuytrewq wrote:https://twitter.com/DougieCoullPics/status/1129010381643485184?s=20
HMS Trent outbound from the Clyde on sea trials

Beautiful ship she is. I also cannot "fantasy" about up-arming her. But, at least if T31e program goes on, there is no need to up-arm River B2. In this case, they can be ships among the highest grade of EEZ patrol ship, lightly armed, but with CMS and network, so-so high level and with very long range. River B2 has accommodation up to 60 or 70 crew, in addition to room for 50 RM troops. Huge margin.

But, if "more T26 movement" is executed and T31e be hollowed out like Floreal-class (with 1 more T26) or even banned (with 2 more T26), River B2 can be a good candidate to supplement the "(6+9 =) 15 or (6+10 =) 16" top tier escorts (T45 and T23/26). So, River B2 is a good "reserver" for the future uncertainty of T31e. :D

---- a bit detailed ----
River B2 is nearly half in size compared to even Leander, so "up-armed River B2" can never be a light frigate. But a 90m 2000t vessel can go anywhere. Then what to cut, for me, is helicopter capabilities. If the ship operates near Britain island, Falkland island, or other territories with air-force/naval air-base, land-based air cover is much more efficient than helo onboard. (Actually, many OPV for near-shore patrol lacks hangar, or even a flight-deck).

On the other hand, if the ship is escorting RFA vessels, all of them (now) has a good helicopter facilities and River B2 do not need to carry helo by their own.

There looks like there are some volume of niche here.

In this case, we do not need to think of hangar anymore, and utilize the whole "backyards" of River B2 for her armaments. They can carry
2 more USVs, some SSMs, or even 3-cell ExLS for 12 CAMM. Also they can replace the forward gun with 57 mm Mk3 with 3P and Orca rounds (*1). At least, the 57 mm turret itself is not that expensive.

*1: Three 57 mm guns can be purchased with only 18M GBP (6M GBP each). Of course, we need the whole logistic and training to be added. But, at least the former can be "shared" with USN and Canada. Adding Orca round could be expensive, but we can regard it as an option. (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/bae-to- ... 2-7m-deal/)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 17 May 2019, 16:56

donald_of_tokyo wrote:On the other hand, if the ship is escorting RFA vessels, all of them (now) has a good helicopter facilities and River B2 do not need to carry helo by their own.


In that instance it sounds like its the auxiliary thats escorting the River.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 17 May 2019, 19:38

Would say remove the crane and use the space either side before taking up the space on the flight deck.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 18 May 2019, 00:26

shark bait wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:On the other hand, if the ship is escorting RFA vessels, all of them (now) has a good helicopter facilities and River B2 do not need to carry helo by their own.


In that instance it sounds like its the auxiliary thats escorting the River.
No problem. When it comes to CVTF, it is the CV which is escorting T45 and T23/26 by her 24 F35Bs and 13 Merlins :D

Actually, covering together.

Here what is in my mind is
1: A detachment to South Georgia in Falkland-like scenario with up armed River (with 57 mm gun, 12 CAMM and 8 NSM) and a Wave with 2 Wildcats and RM onboard.

2: 1 or 2 similarly armed River B2 escorting the back end RFA ships to defend ASM attack from a long range patrol aircraft, frequently capable of carrying 2-4 ASMs (but not more).

3: 2 ASW up armed Rivers (with 57 mm gun, CIWS, and CAPTAS-1 or Atlas ACATS like compact LFAPS) searching for SSK in, North sea, Irish sea, around Falkland Island, or other area with air cover, when a threat rises while the CVTF is deploying elsewhere with most of the available escorts. (Their task is actually not to "kill" the SSK (only if lucky), but to force it "hide", enough to stop more attack.)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 18 May 2019, 12:30

Repulse wrote:Would say remove the crane and use the space either side before taking up the space on the flight deck.


I think removing the crane would reduce the ships all round use. if we take a B2 River with its crane we can add 2 ISO containers to support USV's like Hero and Camcopter or extra raiding craft for RM and maybe even unmanned MCM craft.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 18 May 2019, 13:28

Tempest414 wrote:I think removing the crane would reduce the ships all round use.


It would, but depends on what role you want to focus it on. The crane position would be a good position for a CIWS and has been used by the Thai navy to site additional kit and SSMs (the latter on their second in class).

My personal view is that if the B2s are being pitched towards more than being a EEZ OPV, given that we will have multiple RFA options for HADR then the crane and carrying containers (with the ability to self off load) becomes less - UAV containers would be still possible, but just loaded in a suitable port.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Jensy » 18 May 2019, 19:43

I know there are some who complain about too many Twitter photos.... but thought these were too good not to post:



Image

I keep thinking these Batch 2s have something very retro about their design, like they could have been Colonial Sloops back in the days of Empire. Could be it's the 'hat' atop the bridge reminding me of those WWI era canvas topped observation decks... Still twin 4.5" QF guns could push it further in that direction.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 20 May 2019, 12:23

Repulse wrote:It would, but depends on what role you want to focus it on. The crane position would be a good position for a CIWS and has been used by the Thai navy to site additional kit and SSMs (the latter on their second in class).


For me right now a good upgrade to the B2 Rivers would be 3 x 30mm with the Port and Starboard mounts fitted with a 7 round LMM system and the forward mount fitted with a 7 round Starstreak-2 system. Next add a UAV system of 2 aircraft like Hero or Camcopter s-100 which can carry I-Master radar (Camcopter can also carry and fire 2 LMM) giving the ship the ability search up to 25,000 KM2 of area an hour it also would allow the the ships commander and ops team to have full eyes on during boarding ops. I would still keep the crane as this would allow the flight deck to become a working deck for Unmanned MCM/ ASW ops

Also If I was to forward base a B2 in the med I would give it something like a CAPTAS-1 sonar my thinking being that when carrying out its main task of anti traffickng it could act as a picket ship for Russian Subs coming and going from the MED

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SKB » 03 Jun 2019, 02:09


Image

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 03 Jun 2019, 08:51

Tempest414 wrote:give it something like a CAPTAS-1 sonar

Are there any examples of something similar? Is a small ship stable enough, and are the old fashioned engines quiet enough?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 03 Jun 2019, 11:53

All very good questions which I don't have the answers for but maybe a sonar of some sort just to make it harder for Russian sub commanders coming and going from the Med

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 03 Jun 2019, 12:42

Well we can see how the reputation of Norwayan Nansen-class ship, which is "so-so" quiet.

Also, we can wait for reputations of
- Royal Malaysian Navy Gowind-2000 class corvette (102 m long, 2500t), and
- UAE corvette Abu Dhabi (88.4 m long, 1650t FL)

Yes, as an ASW frigate, Nansen-class is "so-so quietized". But, significantly smaller River B2 has smaller engines and hence shall be less noisy. Which will win? I do not know.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 03 Jun 2019, 14:22

I more important thing.

CAPTAS-1 has only small towed passive sonar part. So, it is primarily an active sonar. In this case, hull noise around 1-2 kHz primarily matters, and noise in other frequency is relatively un-important. Requirement for quietness differs if active only, or passive is also considered important. For example, I understand Neatherland navy is only interested in active mode of their LFAS.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 03 Jun 2019, 14:28

And in coastal environments an active sonar is the only way to stand a change of detecting a sub.

Their is defiantly an application for these compact active sets, however its not clear is the river class is a suitable option. If something like this is on the cards surely the T31 is the ideal candidate?
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 03 Jun 2019, 22:33

Fitting a sonar to a River class operating in the Med is one thing I would look at but after giving the Rivers a UAV with I Master capability meaning they can search up to 60,000 KM2 in 3 hours

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby SW1 » 03 Jun 2019, 22:41

https://elbitsystems.com/landing/wp-con ... -TRAPS.pdf

Being fitted to Kingston class in Canada and apparently the seagull usv.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Jun 2019, 03:13

An interesting piece of kit. But can the B2 Rivers be adapted to carry and use such a thing or would it be more applicable as a low cost option for the T-31e?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby jedibeeftrix » 04 Jun 2019, 11:18

shark bait wrote:And in coastal environments an active sonar is the only way to stand a change of detecting a sub.

Their is defiantly an application for these compact active sets, however its not clear is the river class is a suitable option. If something like this is on the cards surely the T31 is the ideal candidate?

i read a suggestion in another thread of giving the T31e a genuinely useful warship role by equipping it as an inshore ASW escort.
sounds similar to this idea.

would such a ship be able to perform TAPS in the Irish/North sea, such that it would make a real difference in T26 availability for the CSG?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 04 Jun 2019, 14:03

SW1 wrote:https://elbitsystems.com/landing/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/GEOSPECTRUM-TECHNOLOGIES-INC.-BROCHURE-TRAPS.pdf

Being fitted to Kingston class in Canada and apparently the seagull usv.
Thanks. There are also Janes' article...

https://www.janes.com/article/88851/asw ... als-cs19d1

These new tactics will need evaluation. I am happy to use one River B2 for similar trial around Britain, using either TRAPS, Atlas ACTAS, or CAPTAS-1. These three systems are all "containered". With basic CMS, River B2 will be much easier to integrate these assets, as well.

Without stern extension modification, as USN Freedom did, the system will fill the flight deck, but it is not an issue, because those inshore ASW assets shall cooperate with land-based Merlin or P-8As. Test, test, and test. Maybe after a few years of testings, RN will be able to decide.

For example, how about buying 5-sets of container CAPTAS-1, and adding a small stern extension to all River B2 to house it. Also, utilize the T31e's stern space to sometimes carry this system. (Note that even Leander has a stern space WIDER than T23). This will give, 5 River B2 and 5 T31e vessels to sometimes becoming "inshore ASW asset". In future, this will be supplemented by ASW-USV. But, also in this case, the results of these evaluations will help RN to decide what to select, how to use it, and where to deploy them.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Tempest414 » 04 Jun 2019, 14:34

I have to say this was were my thinking was going with 5 B2 Rivers and 5 T31s I agree buy 5 sets and start playing if nothing more it will help inform MHPC thinking and may open the door to a T-31 order . Maybe also if Leander is picked maybe go for an armament of 1 x 57mm and 2 x new 40mm with 3P ammo and then upgrade the B2's to house the same 40mm giving them a so so anti air capability which the 30mm does not

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Postby Lord Jim » 04 Jun 2019, 16:40

I can see an argument for installing a BAe 57mm on the T-31e with the associated ammo types, but also going for the 40mm is very difficult to justify. I would rather see the 57mm on the Rivers, especially if their roles are going to be expanded along the lines suggested here. Saying that I would also like the same weapon replacing the Mk8 on the T-45s as well.


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