River Class (OPV) (RN)

[Repulse]

donald_of_tokyo, it would be but we've lost 2 MCMs in the past 12 months.

[SKB]

[The Armchair Soldier]

[donald_of_tokyo]

Just for fun.

1: Analysis how to add a fixed Wildcat hangar on River B2. I think if we can re-make the exhaust/funnel, a fixed 15m long hangar can be located.
2: Analysis how to add a 20 mm CIWS onboard River B2, without big modification. Just mount it on the top of the flight deck, and there will be 18x13.6m flight deck remaining, which I think is Wildcat capable? I you need an extension of 1 m or 2, just have it, as RN did with T22 SeaKing capable hulls' over hang deck, and BAE did with Khareef's stern.

Not sure what kind of "up arming" may come for River B2, in future. But, now some review is going on and it will be worth considering every options. So, if we want to "slightly" up arm River B2, but still keep the cost modest, this is what can be done, I think.

river_b2_mod_plan.jpg

[Ron5]

Excellent Donald-san!

Does the crane have to be removed in your examples?

[Poiuytrewq]

Looks like a tight fit Donald!

As I said in a previous post, I would send the RB2's straight to Cammell Laird and stretch them by 5m to 10m, add a hanger, 12CAMM and a 57mm gun and we would have the RB3 we should of had in the first place. Then the T31 can move up a peg to a proper General Purpose Frigate.

[Aethulwulf]

Like the idea of fitting a fixed hanger for Wildcat to River B2. A helicopter brings so much extra capability to the whole package.

Not sure about CIWS (or CAMM, or 57 mm). It is still an OPV and should not be tasked or sent into any area where these would be needed.

Current 30mm is more than capable of intimidating fishermen and smugglers.

Previously I asked how many times an OPV has fired its main gun in anger during the last 30 years. Counting the number of examples people came up with did not trouble all the fingers on one hand. And none of them demonstrated a clear need for anything larger than 30mm.

[Repulse]

Syria has demonstrated IMO that the need for the a Hi-Lo mix for RN is a must. Mediocre frigates to make up the numbers are less than worthless when fighting against top tier adversaries. The bottom tier is needed and at volume, but the “stick” needs to be credible.

Modified B2 Rivers can and should do the forward presence role acting as a trip wire, leaving the funds for more top kit. Definitely a Hangar (permanent or temporary) is needed, but so is entry level CIWS / self defence weaponary to survive an attack and be able to escape. Phalanx + 57mm would IMO give this credible defence.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Thanks, to all.

Does the crane have to be removed in your examples?

For hangar, yes we need to remove it. The CIWS option is specifically intended to "can do it now", just like RN did by carrying CIWS on the side of Bay LSD (not on the bow/bridge structure as planned).

As I said in a previous post, I would send the RB2's straight to Cammell Laird and stretch them by 5m to 10m, add a hanger, 12CAMM and a 57mm gun and we would have the RB3 we should of had in the first place. Then the T31 can move up a peg to a proper General Purpose Frigate.

I'm afraid stretching may cost as much as a "half" of new build, and I am not that positive to it. If you want it, we shall better sell the 2 hull very cheap to Brazil, and newly build 2 longer versions, I think.

Current 30mm is more than capable of intimidating fishermen and smugglers. [/qiuote] Agreed. Even if they are to be "up armed", I think 3 (or 2) of them shall remain as it is. Only the 2 (or 3 at max) might be better to be up-armed, depending on the result of new review.

Modified B2 Rivers can and should do the forward presence role acting as a trip wire, leaving the funds for more top kit. Definitely a Hangar (permanent or temporary) is needed, but so is entry level CIWS / self defence weaponary to survive an attack and be able to escape. Phalanx + 57mm would IMO give this credible defence.

If up-arming is coming, I agree "Phalanx + 57mm + hangar" will be the highest level needed. As I noted, I think we do not need all 5 to be in this standard, because anyway we need simple EEZ patrol ships.

[SKB]

Portsmouth News is speculating that three Batch 1 River Class may be retained for post-Brexit border patrol duties.
https://www.portsmouth.co.uk/news/defen ... -1-8459424

[shark bait]

Syria has demonstrated IMO that the need for the a Hi-Lo mix for RN is a must

Why does Syria change anything?

[Repulse]

Syria has demonstrated IMO that the need for the a Hi-Lo mix for RN is a must

Why does Syria change anything?

What Syria has highlighted is that the days of uncontested US and UK global expeditionary/ power projection is over. Be it Russia in the Eastern Mediterranean or China in the Far East or even the Indian Ocean, the fact is the days of under armed / single globe trotting ships is over. To project global power you need a scale and strength in a single location at a point in time that will require virtually everything the UK has.

To strike Syria even in a very limited way, took top tier platforms with TLAM, ASW & AAW escorts, SSNs and MPAs at scale - no longer can a SSN do a strike and quietly sail away.

No matter how much realistically the RN budget rises this means that funds need to be channelled into a strong but small CSG/SSN/MPA and maybe SSGN force. This leaves limited funds for the UKs global constabulary commitments, e.g. forward presence Sloops.

[Poiuytrewq]

Be it Russia in the Eastern Mediterranean or China in the Far East or even the Indian Ocean, the fact is the days of under armed / single globe trotting ships is over.

Does this mean that the T26 as a Global Combat Ship has had its day before it's even hit the water?

[Clive F]

I think I know what is coming. We have 5 new B2's and 5 T23GP's and we are short of sailors. Scrap/sell Gap's ( and Clyde quietly), use crews to man B2's and claim T31 are increase in hulls.

[shark bait]

the fact is the days of under armed / single globe trotting ships is over.

It has been since the empire fell apart, but for some reason lots of people still think the world exists for Britannia to go around and shake the white ensign at the colonies.

These days all that really matters are carriers and submarines.

[Lord Jim]

But the UK invented "Gunboat Diplomacy", and current Politicians seems to want to return to the "Good old days". I also think some believe soft power means not being able to shoot back whist being shot at.

[Repulse]

But the UK invented "Gunboat Diplomacy", and current Politicians seems to want to return to the "Good old days". I also think some believe soft power means not being able to shoot back whist being shot at.

I think "Gunboat" has been replaced by "Ginboat", which is appropriate given we no longer have absolutes power of the waves and are guests that need to influence generally rather than threaten.

However, we do need the ability to provide a credible "threat" on the global stage as @Sharkbait says you need Carrier Groups and Subs. Id also say you need the ability to Raid also, but pretending to be able to invade somewhere significant is pretty pointless nowadays even for the US.

[james k]

We may be keeping some or all of the batch 1 ships which would be good news indeed and might serve to increase the ability of the RNR to support fleet operations

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... etire.html

[james k]

Well for a start there is a very real coastal vulnerability at the SBO's in Cyprus our base for all Middle Eastern Air Ops.

Syria has demonstrated IMO that the need for the a Hi-Lo mix for RN is a must

Why does Syria change anything?

[james k]

Nonsense! The UK doesn't just have NATO responsibilities. There are Overseas Dependent Territories a host of defence agreements which include Commonwealth Realms other commonwealth members and regional alliances with nations who's well being has a direct impact on our own. There are also significant British expatriate populations whom we are duty bound to protect from natural disaster, civil unrest and hostile military or terrorist action. As for the last part of your statement about carriers and subs that too is nonsense for without major surface combatants the carriers are vulnerable to enemy submarines, aircraft and surface vessels

the fact is the days of under armed / single globe trotting ships is over.

It has been since the empire fell apart, but for some reason lots of people still think the world exists for Britannia to go around and shake the white ensign at the colonies.

These days all that really matters are carriers and submarines.

[shark bait]

carriers and subs that too is nonsense for without major surface combatants the carriers are vulnerable to enemy submarines, aircraft and surface vessels

no wayyyyy! are they?

[james k]

Clearly but you seemed to think not

carriers and subs that too is nonsense for without major surface combatants the carriers are vulnerable to enemy submarines, aircraft and surface vessels

no wayyyyy! are they?

[Repulse]

I think I know what is coming. We have 5 new B2's and 5 T23GP's and we are short of sailors. Scrap/sell Gap's ( and Clyde quietly), use crews to man B2's and claim T31 are increase in hulls.

I’d take a drop of the 5 GPS if replaced by 2 extra ASW T26s (all of which should be properly equipped), small upgrades to the B2s and keeping the B1 Rivers. Re-purpose the T31 programme to be a MHPC programme for a class of 20, to replace the B1s, MCMs and Echos.

[Poiuytrewq]

I think I know what is coming. We have 5 new B2's and 5 T23GP's and we are short of sailors. Scrap/sell Gap's ( and Clyde quietly), use crews to man B2's and claim T31 are increase in hulls.

I’d take a drop of the 5 GPS if replaced by 2 extra ASW T26s (all of which should be properly equipped), small upgrades to the B2s and keeping the B1 Rivers. Re-purpose the T31 programme to be a MHPC programme for a class of 20, to replace the B1s, MCMs and Echos.

If you could squeeze 2 more fully loaded T26's into the build schedule in return for decommissioning the GP T23's early would it not then make sense to use the T31 budget for another 2 T26's bringing the total to 12 fully loaded T26's. Then just let the MHPC programme run and see where it ends up?

12 fully loaded T26's would be a result.......

[Repulse]

Poiuytrewq, like the hope, but I was hoping just for two more.