River Class (OPV) (RN)

[Caribbean]

Tend to agree - with the proliferation of ex-Soviet 23mm AAA (and probably dozens of equivalents) and the tendency for irregular forces and even criminal gangs to mount them on just about anything that moves, the 30mm ASCG seems just a little too short-ranged. Even the Bofors 40mm would push engagement ranges out to/ beyond the visual horizon and he ability to use 3P ammunition would give it far greater capabilities against FIACs and other small craft.

[S M H]

, the 30mm ASCG seems just a little too short-ranged. Even the Bofors 40mm would push engagement ranges out to/ beyond the visual horizon

The rivers would be out gunned by any vessel supporting ex Soviet 23mm A.A,A as well as the close copy's. The rational not for fitting the 76mm (as fitted on the ex peacock patrol boats) or 40 mm. Concentrating on 30mm ASGC as harmonize weapons in the fleet could be the rivers glass jaw. If one was unfortunately to get into a scrape when on constabulary duties. This may be addressed later when the M.H.P.C. requirement needing to cover Guard ship duties provides the supply chain to support a heaver primary gun. Till then I doubt the M.O.D. would sanction up gunning the rivers unless one unfortunately gets mauled acting as a pseudo corvette. That causes a public outcry.

[Caribbean]

The rationale for a common secondary weapon across the fleet is fine. If the Rivers were sticking to their traditional fisheries and training roles, I would have no issue with using a 30 mm as the main gun (for use, primarily, in it's training role). It just seems to me that we may well be intending to use the River B2's for roles for which they were not originally intended and are poorly equipped to handle (all discussed in great detail above) for some years to come. Hopefully, as you say, the future MHPC time, will be ordered in sufficient quantities to justify adopting (say) the 76mm as a main gun.

[donald_of_tokyo]

At least for River B2, the most urgent thing I want to add to 2 out of the 5 vessels (not all) is "a retractable Wildcat hangar, with full arsenal". Arm Wildcat with 20 LMM or 4 SeaVenom, it will be a good "over the horizon" weapon to attack your enemy. The 2 hulls shall be armed with 30mm SeaHawk, added with LMM (common to Wildcat, good for logistics) and 2x 7.62mm gatling guns, to secure herself from incoming "suspicious" boats. (These boats needs assessment and 76mm gun may be to destructive).

(Of course, better to have 76 mm gun in addition. But, for me, the first priority is hangar, and LMM added to the 30mm gun.)

The other 3 hulls shall stay as it is, optimized for more light patrol, such as Fishery, Med, FIGS and (most of the) WIGS tasks. No need to make it expensive to operate.

[marktigger]

76mm probably feasible wildcat hanger and deck probably not

[shark bait]

Can't agree to the upgrades, we have already wasted enough of the RN's precious resources on this cock up. The RN has many more higher priorities to worry about.

[Gabriele]

HMS Mersey decommissions later this year.

HMS Clyde and HMS Severn in 2019.

HMS Tyne does not appear in the list, for some reason, but i'm pretty sure it is just a mistake. She'll probably go out before HMS Mersey.

[donald_of_tokyo]

HMS Mersey decommissions later this year.
HMS Clyde and HMS Severn in 2019.
HMS Tyne does not appear in the list, for some reason, but i'm pretty sure it is just a mistake. She'll probably go out before HMS Mersey.

Big news, it is. Thanks.
http://www.parliament.uk/business/publi ... 4-18/71203

I think this means, River B2 hull-1 (Forth) will commission this year (as known), and hull-2 and 3 on 2019. HMS Tyne's fate is of big interest. Also, when hull-4 and 5 comes in 2021, what will happen?

[SKB]

Maybe they could be recommissioned into the UK Border Force, or are they destined for a Turkish scrapyard?

[SDL]

I'd be surprised if they're scrapped TBH.

Shame we can't incorporate both versions of the Rivers into use....

[bobp]

Very surprised if they scrap them they have a lot of years in them yet.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Speculation about Tyne.

- Now her crew is "rent" from MCMVs. In other words, she do not have any crew of her own. HMS Forth has it. This means, River B2 needs their crew 6-8 months before commissioning.
- As SharkBait-san showed in "22 Apr 2017, 06:33", in 2016 Rivers (presumably 3 of them) were spending 330 days for fishery and 302 days for other tasks. (In 2015, it was 460/325. Significant reduction. Man-power issue?). A River B2 can spend 300 days a year or even more (I think), so if it is short period, practically you need only 2 hulls, in addition to the FIGS. In long term, 4 is enough (of course).

Severn will be decommissioned later this year, not to be replaced by Forth, but to crew Medwey. In this case, however, I cannot find crew to man Trent.

So, when will be the 2 Sandowns will be decommissioned?

[Gabriele]

in 2016 Rivers (presumably 3 of them) were spending 330 days for fishery and 302 days for other tasks. (In 2015, it was 460/325. Significant reduction. Man-power issue?).

I believe the difference is largely due to the fact that at least one of the Rivers was away from UK waters and related tasks all year long. HMS Mersey sailed January 2016 and only returned January 2017, so it contributed zero days to that list. Caribbean, Mediterranean deployed.

HMS Severn was away for a good while of 2015, of course, but returned from the Caribbean in July, and will have contributed to the total in the months after that.

[donald_of_tokyo]

Thanks Gabriele-san. So you think the WIGS and Meds are not included in the "other tasks" list. Umm, might be.

# can anyone ask for HMG answer again, with more clear definition of saying, "active sea-going days (on 24hr days) of 4 River OPVs"?

[Galloglass]

Very surprised if they scrap them they have a lot of years in them yet.

I like the Rivers myself.
The INS have just announced they intend to replace their two P40s "Peacocks". (Perhaps they might go to join their sisters in the Philippines.)
If the RN was interested, Ireland might be induced to buy some Batch1 Rivers as replacements. In Irish terms they are ideal for EEZ duties and are more versatile than the P40s. (They would also easily have another 20 years of service life.)
If the INS went with them it would then be able to focus it's attention on a newbuild "EPV type" to replace LE Eithne after Appledore deliver P64 next year.

[marktigger]

The INS have just announced they intend to replace their two P40s "Peacocks". (Perhaps they might go to join their sisters in the Philippines.)

Shame to see the Peacocks go they were nice looking little ships.....they should have brought the other 3 back for the Northern Ireland Patrol Squadron.

Be interesting to see what replaces Eithne...she was a real innovation interesting seeing how she has been emulated. I wonder with UK leaving EU will producer of choice move to Spain? BAM would be a good replacement

[Galloglass]

The INS seem to like Appledore......If they showed some variation of their "Type 31" design they might be tempted to bite.

I don't know if EU regulations would apply regarding a military purchase ......they don't seem to affect buying APCs from Switzerland.

[marktigger]

isn't there some EU funding in the patrol vessels?

[Galloglass]

I'm fairly sure there was some sort of EU support for the NS when we were building EEZ patrol ships in Ireland but that didn't extend to the the armament on LE Eithne. Since then I don't know. The INS is involved in a variety of "science and business projects" which are grant aided by the EU though.

Came across this...http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/na ... 97900.html

[Repulse]

Pure speculation, but could the extra MCM crew be used to keep HMS Tyne active as a MCM "off-board" trials vessel?

[shark bait]

probably not, the plan is to use the Hunt class.

[marktigger]

I'm fairly sure there was some sort of EU support for the NS when we were building EEZ patrol ships in Ireland but that didn't extend to the the armament on LE Eithne. Since then I don't know. The INS is involved in a variety of "science and business projects" which are grant aided by the EU though.

Came across this...http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/na ... 97900.html

interesting to compare what the Irish are getting for their money with the River II.

[Thorvicson]

Yes, it beggars belief that we build River II's just to keep BAE Goven ticking over and end up with over priced poor utility designs when we are clearly capable of building far more capable ships for the same price. Surely a hanger for a Wildcat and a decent calibre gun could be fitted leaving the pop gun as a secondary armament. No wonder we don't get export orders !.

[donald_of_tokyo]

I love River B2. We all know it was built cheap as Amazons-class OPV. The difference between River B2 and Amazonas is
A: 29 items of improvements
B: TOBA (sustaining engineering capability for T26 build)

I think the majority is "B". In other words, "348 + 287 = 635 M GBP" is NOT for 5 hull, I understand. Although only guess, I am not surprised if TOBA amounts to 100+100 = 200M GBP. Then, it is 435M GBP for 5 hull = 87M GBP per hull. In the case, with "A" (including addition of CMS), it is reasonable I think.


But, I am a lover of River B1, more than B2. So, disbanding 4 River B1s are not good.

I really hope the "5 River B2" should have been "3 10m-extended Khareef (Cutlass-light)". ("Khareef" with 33 updates = 28 (expect for CMS add) already listed for River B2, +5. = (1) 6 m extension around the hangar, (2) 4m extension astern, (3) 12 SeaMICA changed to 12 (or 24) CAMM, (4) and SMART-S Mk2 to Artisan, (5) add BlueWatcher hull-mounted-sonar). This means, RN shall disband 3 T23GP in place of 3 Cutlass-light, but with man-power crysis, RN would have lost nothing with this choice.

# But, this issue shall be on T31 thread... Sorry.

[Repulse]

The UK is going through a period of restructure, which means it is doing less globally until it focuses itself around CVF based Maritime Groups. For me, decommissioning 1 T23 early and keeping the 3 Batch 1s running is the best short term solution as it would enable the UK to transition in parallel to having "presence vessels" (in this case the B2 Rivers) in parallel to our Maritime Group "big stick". It won't happen due to politics.