River Class (OPV) (RN)

[donald_of_tokyo]

Mark-san
I have no objection to your point. But it is not only ministers and politicians. UK people shall say they want to pay for RN. More tax for more safer/stronger navy.

At the same time, we shall make it clear to the public that RN do not have enough escorts. So, RN cannot do all the jobs YOU (=UK people) expects. Do not hide the reality, never say OPV is a frigate. In this case, "because of Argentina military low status" is important. If it become active again, gapping APT-S will mean losing Falkland Island, at least in military point of view. RN shall clearly say it. So it is then politics to save Falkland Island, not military. Let FI people claim they need better defense, to invoke movement within UK people.

Also, not using escort for WIGS means (as you say) UK-RN will not be able to fight for Belize if the country is suddenly attacked. Do NOT pretend you can. In this case, if that issue happened, RN shall say "No there is no vessel deployable to the theater, UK-HMG WAS NOT PAYING FOR IT for very long, so there is no escort there. OPV? OPV is OPV. Sending an OPV to real war is just like sending you citizen to fight against terrorists in London without any training nor armament. No, we will never do it.".

# In this case, sadly I guess the answer will be "so let Belize be conquered.". Anyway Belize is independent nation, not UK dependency, isn't it? So I feel sending OPV for WIGS is acceptable.

[marktigger]

Problem id Donald just like 1982 the Great British Public believe the PR and its only when there are Images of burning/sinking ships will they sit up and take note.

[shark bait]

didn't one of the OPV's escort the last russian ship through the channel? was on RN FB feed

Nope, HMS Sutherland has been the fleet ready escort for most of the year. Been doing lots of shadowing of Russian ships.

[marktigger]

So HMS Tyne didn't escort the Alexander Shablin and The Minsk through the English Channel in september 2016?

[shark bait]

Sorry, I thought you were referring to this;

Take a look at @RoyalNavy's Tweet:

I shall concede you have found an instance were a river is used where a escort probably should be. I wonder why Tyne was sent when HMS Sutherland has been assigned to FRE and TAPS all year, perhaps she was busy looking for a sub.

Perhaps I should modify my statement on the last page, a River class is never deployed in place of an escort.

[Galloglass]

So HMS Tyne didn't escort the Alexander Shablin and The Minsk through the English Channel in september 2016?

You're correct Mark I remebered it myself.....http://navaltoday.com/2016/09/08/hms-ty ... n-a-month/

[abc123]

# In this case, sadly I guess the answer will be "so let Belize be conquered.". Anyway Belize is independent nation, not UK dependency, isn't it? So I feel sending OPV for WIGS is acceptable.

Agreed. Also, there's no oil or anything important there, so who really cares? UK plc isn't some charity institution.

[Caribbean]

A tad embarrassing on the international stage if the former British Honduras, a member of the Commonwealth, with HM Queen Elizabeth as Head of State, can't depend on assistance from the aformentioned monarch's armed forces, donchathink? Particularly as we created the country and decided the border that seems to be such a problem.

Quite apart from our obligations to assist under international law as former colonial power etc, etc

[marktigger]

I shall concede you have found an instance were a river is used where a escort probably should be. I wonder why Tyne was sent when HMS Sutherland has been assigned to FRE and TAPS all year, perhaps she was busy looking for a sub.

Perhaps I should modify my statement on the last page, a River class is never deployed in place of an escort.

actually was two incidents one was transiting north the other south

[marktigger]

A tad embarrassing on the international stage if the former British Honduras, a member of the Commonwealth, with HM Queen Elizabeth as Head of State, can't depend on assistance from the aformentioned monarch's armed forces, donchathink? Particularly as we created the country and decided the border that seems to be such a problem.

Quite apart from our obligations to assist under international law as former colonial power etc, etc

also add in its a British Army training area

[Aethulwulf]

I think the UK gave some sort of guarantee of security when Belize was given independence.

[marktigger]

I think the UK gave some sort of guarantee of security when Belize was given independence.

thats what we maintained a garrison with harrier and Puma support out there till the 1990's

[abc123]

A tad embarrassing on the international stage if the former British Honduras, a member of the Commonwealth, with HM Queen Elizabeth as Head of State, can't depend on assistance from the aformentioned monarch's armed forces, donchathink? Particularly as we created the country and decided the border that seems to be such a problem.

Quite apart from our obligations to assist under international law as former colonial power etc, etc

I'm not an expert for international law, but I can't remember what international convention say's that former colonial master must defend their former colonies?

Bit embarrasing, yes, but if they wanted protection, they should have stayed as UK overseas territory...

[Repulse]

Having a Frigate on station may have a level of deterrence, having to ability to project a carrier group and land a Cdo Brigade independently is game set and match.

[shark bait]

Well said @repulse.

There are much higher priorities. Even if there was an extra frigate available for another task I'd argue there are more important ones than the carribian. Auxilaries and Rivers are a measured and correct response to our interests in the carribian.

[S M H]

The deployment of a River as guard vessel during the none hurricane season would be an effective use of assets. Flag waving presence in area . Slightly up armed as even a duty frigate would be in effective in a Belize situation, Priority should be to carrier operational capability.

[abc123]

Having a Frigate on station may have a level of deterrence, having to ability to project a carrier group and land a Cdo Brigade independently is game set and match.

This. Also, considering that UK has an ( civilian ) airport in Grand Cayman ( about 850 km ) from Belize and Guatemala and lack of Guatemalan Air Force opposition, I really don't think that UK needs frigate there. Moreso because primary danger for Belize is from land, not from sea.

[marktigger]

The deployment of a River as guard vessel during the none hurricane season would be an effective use of assets. Flag waving presence in area . Slightly up armed as even a duty frigate would be in effective in a Belize situation, Priority should be to carrier operational capability.

given the lack of escorts the "operational capability" of the carriers independently is questionable.

[marktigger]

Having a Frigate on station may have a level of deterrence, having to ability to project a carrier group and land a Cdo Brigade independently is game set and match.

This. Also, considering that UK has an ( civilian ) airport in Grand Cayman ( about 850 km ) from Belize and Guatemala and lack of Guatemalan Air Force opposition, I really don't think that UK needs frigate there. Moreso because primary danger for Belize is from land, not from sea.

Naval vessel adds allot of different capabilities that can remain on station for long periods and in most weather conditions

[Repulse]

Naval vessel adds allot of different capabilities that can remain on station for long periods and in most weather conditions

I agree with this, but keeping a frigate on station in case something happens, with the other in-theatre assets is overkill. A containerised Brimstone/LMM armed VTOL UAV capable of ISR would be a great addition to the River tool kit would be useful however.

[Spinflight]

Why vtol?

Lots of design compromises in a Vtol design, why not just use the sea as a runway with a floatplane design? Crane it over the side and recover it the same way. You'd get much more payload, the sea is effectively a runway of limitless length.

Think the Russians have something using a hovercraft skirt to use in this way. Haven't seen any recent details though.

[shark bait]

Not impossible. Then you have the challenge of waterproofing the drone, and all the sensors and weapons that sit underneath it.

The choice is which has the lowest performance penalty?

A floatplane drone has no use on land either, where as VTOL does.

[marktigger]

and hoping to god that your enemy doesn't have EW capability or and aircraft with a machine gun mounted on it!

[Ron5]

Why vtol?

Lots of design compromises in a Vtol design, why not just use the sea as a runway with a floatplane design? Crane it over the side and recover it the same way. You'd get much more payload, the sea is effectively a runway of limitless length.

Think the Russians have something using a hovercraft skirt to use in this way. Haven't seen any recent details though.

Tried that in World War One. Didn't work so they invented aircraft carriers.

[ArmChairCivvy]

I'm not an expert for international law, but I can't remember what international convention say's that former colonial master must defend their former colonies?

Bit embarrasing, yes, but if they wanted protection, they should have stayed as UK overseas territory...

yep; or is it rather...there we go again