River Class (OPV) (RN)

[shark bait]

They would benefit immeasurably if equipped with an organic UAV capability to greatly increase the platforms sphere of influence in a patrol role, then perhaps coupled with some fast attack craft to increase its force projection in a maritime security role.

The rivers we have at present are pretty lackluster, and so are the new batches. Why we have built them with complex enhancements but no mission equipment is beyond me. It's just a big mess to boost the value of the platforms to maintain industrial capabilities. The point I'm trying to make is we could have had 5 Avenger, with a modest increase in capability, for the same price.

Oh well, lets hope we can forget about this saga. At least they look nicer.

[marktigger]

Oh well, lets hope we can forget about this saga. At least they look nicer.

still not as nice as the Le Samuel Beckett's

[donald_of_tokyo]

There is nothing wrong with those OPVs. The only thing is that, to keep the UK ship building going, it come 10 years earlier than expected. Since it was BEFORE the mid-life upgrade of River B.1, actually it is not that bad, I think. Disbanding so-so new ship to keep the dock-yard busy is a strategy, sometimes seen, as in JMSDF SSKs.

The reason I am calling for a hangar to be added for the "to be ordered" 2 additional vessels is that, with the new 3 B.2, the Fishery and UK border defense roles will be filled. APT-N to be filled with 3 B.2s or additional 2 vessels, will be much better done with a hangar and a Wildcat. Even in Med, I think hangar will be "nice to have" thing. So 2 of 5 having a hangar adds good flexibility to the fleet, I guess (As a bonus, it will also enhance further export of Rivers).

What is more, if the need arises, it will be better to be able to arm their Wildcat with LMM/SeaVenom (but this requires good arsenal). If added with a CIWS on the hanger, then it become nothing less than a Floreal. Another flexibility in future. (I admit this "flexibility" is to prepare for the case T31 was unsuccessful).

Adding more armaments, I do not agree. 3in as a 1to1 replacement for bow 30mm gun, will be OK. It does not require high level of radar nor CMS. 20mm CIWS, might be OK. But, CAMM? I think No. Hi-level radar, and CMS to handle the radar signal and CAMM control, will make it too "costy" and kill T31 or even T26. No good thing.

[LordJim]

Just as a thought, have we ever trialed Starstreak on board a RN or RFA vessel, using the 3 round portable launcher. If this could also be used for the LWM it should be a low cost add on for areas with a known threat such as Pirates or low tier opposition.

[Timmymagic]

Just as a thought, have we ever trialed Starstreak on board a RN or RFA vessel, using the 3 round portable launcher. If this could also be used for the LWM it should be a low cost add on for areas with a known threat such as Pirates or low tier opposition.

I'm sure we will have done at some point in the distant past with Javelin or Starburst. In GW1 the Canadians sent some ships with Javelin teams onboard to enhance their close in defences. The easiest option would be for the RN to adopt the Sigma Seahawk, they already use the gun and mount, with LMM and Starstreak you've now given every OPV, Minesweeper et al a serious anti-FAC and UAV capability with LMM out to 8-9km, and if they fit Starstreak you've got a pretty ferocious SAM out to the same..

http://www.msi-dsl.com/our_products/weapons/sigma.php

Nah, makes far too much sense....

[marktigger]

Both Royal Marine Air Defence troop and Royal Artillery (I think it was 10 battery) deployed Javelin/Javelins15 on both Frigates and RFA's on Armilla patrol and GW1.

[donald_of_tokyo]

SeaHawk sigma web site says nothing about star streak missile. There is no document saying so (other than OURSELVES... ).

Why it is not on the table? Do anybody know?

If possible, the industry should have said so. It will at least "look" like attractive...

[marktigger]

at minute all i've seen is some sales talk and people not denying the systems are compatible but nothing offical.....But then they never offically announced Javelin Missiles were compatible with later mark Blowpipe aimer units.

[dmereifield]

Can anyone provide answers to the following general questions:

1) has the TOBA been concluded by the purchase of the first 3 batch 2 rivers?

2) has the order for the 2 additional hatch 2 rivers been placed? If so, are they identical spec to the first 3 or will they include any modifications (e.g. inclusion of a hangar)?

I have heard/read contradictory reports. Sorry if it has been covered here already
Thanks

[shark bait]

1) not concluded, but the obligation to provide work through to the T26 build has been fulfilled.

2) no firm order in place yet, likely to be identical.

[dmereifield]

Thanks. Seems odd that the obligation to provide work through to T26 build is considered fulfilled when they haven't yet (as far as confirmed publically?) agreed when to commence the T26 build.

If they haven't yet signed off for 4 and 5 is it at all possible they will cancel these and use the allocated funds (ca. £230 million going by the cost of the first 3) to try to squeeze out a 6th T31? I suppose not, but £230 million doesn't seem to far off the number being banded around for the T31 (whatever it turns out to be). Would that make more sense for the RN or would 2 further rivers be more useful?

[shark bait]

Unlikely, the issue is keeping the factory open so it ready to begin the T26 when ever that time comes. Unless they can begin the T31 or T26 very soon we are going to have to get more patrol vessels.

[ArmChairCivvy]

ca. £230 million going by the cost of the first 3

That's the lower limit; the upper limit is the same (350m) that Gordon Brown announced the T26s with, some time in the now distant (and also otherwise murky) history.

[GibMariner]

Timelapse of HMS Forth being launched: http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-37230274

[marktigger]

and after the 26 build I'm sure Bae will want the yard modernised and prepared for type 31 at the tax payers expense! I wonder what Blohm & Voss do? go cap in hand to the german govt or Damen does the dutch government pay for this stuff in their yards?

[shark bait]

That's different, they're not a single customer facility.

HM Government is the sole customer of the Clyde yards, which means however BAE finance the upgrades, HM Government pays for them in the end.

Its an unavoidable consequence of sustaining an noncompetitive industry to protect national security interests.

[marktigger]

really so if t31, 26 or river II are exported Bae will hand the refurbishment money back?

[GibMariner]

Clyde moving to River drumbeat

The fitting out of HMS Forth, the first of the new batch of River-class OPVs for the Royal Navy, is expected to be completed by December this year, ahead of sea trials in March 2017.

The OPV is the first new vessel to be launched, or floated up as is now the case, at the BAE Systems Scotstoun facility since 2013 and represents what the 1,000 or so workers at the site hope will be a regular occurrence over the coming years.

Discussions remain ongoing, according to BAE Systems officials, on options for a further two OPVs, adding to the three already under construction, disclosing that some preparatory work for Boat 4 had begun.

The two options in the River-class build, Boats 4 and 5, have slight variants in their design compared to the first three vessels, primarily due to the emissions requirements having to be brought into line with the latest SOLAS rules.

Construction of Forth began in October 2014 while Medway, the second of class, began in June 2015. Work on the future HMS Trent began in October 2015.

Iain Stevenson, managing director at BAE Systems Naval Ships, said: ‘HMS Forth will continue with fit out until Christmas and then the ship we head for sea trials around March [2017]. Medway is consolidating in Govan and Trent is just behind that.'

Sea trials for Medway are lined up for Q4 in 2017, ahead of a handover later in the quarter. For Trent it will be the middle of 2018 when sea trials will take place, with a handover scheduled for Q3 of that year.

https://www.shephardmedia.com/news/imps ... -drumbeat/

[shark bait]

really so if t31, 26 or river II are exported Bae will hand the refurbishment money back?

I don't know the terms. What I do know is BAE are unlikely to be building ships on the Clyde for a foreign customer. Even Thailand builds their own.

[marktigger]

they built for Brazil , Oman, Brunei in this country

[shark bait]

Brunei didn't accept theirs - they were sold to Indonesia at a loss.
Trinidad and Tobago didn't accept theirs - they were sold to Brazil at a loss.

Leaving 3 successful deliveries to an oil rich state in, that's all that's been achieved in 20 years. Sign of a real healthy industry.

I do not expect any foreign orders will be built on the Clyde. The fact is our shipbuilding is completely noncompetitive, even a highly automated danish yard recently shut because competition is too strong from cheaper labor markets.

[bobp]

1000 workers at the shipyard-that where the money has gone, and each River taking nearly 2 years to build if not more. No way can we be competitive.

[marktigger]

Brunei didn't accept theirs - they were sold to Indonesia at a loss.
Trinidad and Tobago didn't accept theirs - they were sold to Brazil at a loss.

Leaving 3 successful deliveries to an oil rich state in, that's all that's been achieved in 20 years. Sign of a real healthy industry.

I do not expect any foreign orders will be built on the Clyde. The fact is our shipbuilding is completely noncompetitive, even a highly automated danish yard recently shut because competition is too strong from cheaper labor markets.

interesting that Babcocks who don't get state support have successfully sold 5 vessels in the same time frame and the customer is more than happy with the product!

Looks like HMG backed the wrong successful company again!

[shark bait]

no HMG backed the only complex warship builder in the country

[marktigger]

no HMG backed the only complex warship builder in the country

looking at the refit work they carry out in Plymouth I suspect Babcocks do more than enough complex warship engineering to make the transition to building!