River Class (OPV) (RN)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Throw in the combat management system

Do we know about this aspect? Then bolting on fire power becomes a quick job, but if you start with sensors only, then you must have made upfront choices for those while assuming which CMS is to go in later

[Spinflight]

It will be the same system as installed on all the RN warships.

Yes it does mean that bits and bobs could be added, probably wouldn't be a funding priority but if bits could be scavenged off retiring hulls etc then I'm sure they would be. Also I think CAMM is almost entirely software driven, hence you don't need a fire control radar.

In this aspect the 30mm is a strange choice when there must be a warehouse somewhere stuffed with 4.5"s. As I say though, that might make them warry enough to confuse a civil serpent.

Given their price I would hope they've come with all the gucci datalinks and satcom whatsits, which alone with the accomodation could make them useful PED, comms relay or UAV controllers.

Interesting too that they have been modified to operate in lower temperatures. This could be as a result of Clyde's experience in the South Atlantic or could mean they are looking at the option of sending them further afield, it certainly seems like an odd thing to do for something supposedly designed to potter around the North Sea. The Russians are taking a huge interest in the Arctic, which for obvious reasons is rather difficult to monitor. Doubt it but difficult not to wonder what the Navy is thinking with these.

[ArmChairCivvy]

In this aspect the 30mm is a strange choice when there must be a warehouse somewhere stuffed with 4.5"s.

I guess there are plenty of 30 mm's that
A do not need the refurb that a 4.5 would need go through, and
B can very quickly be upgraded to the version sporting LMMs on one side.

There has been a dichotomy in the RN
- 30 mm's for defence against small boats
- Phalanx against close in air threats, esp. incoming missiles (and always short on numbers for this latter one)

However, the situation has been slowly changing (to continue with the A, B, C theme) as the Phalanx A (original) versions have been going through an upgrade (factory-level refurb) into B versions that are also anti-surface capable
- I sure hope the upgrade paths have been getting attention during the design phase (the stuctural aspects, including the required depth of deck penetration, not just being able to take the turret ring and the stresses that would be caused by a bigger gun)

[Spinflight]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/08 ... terrorist/

"he Royal Navy should be deployed in the English Channel to protect the UK against migrant people-smugglers and the heightened terror threat, MPs warn.

Extra patrols around the border are needed because the UK’s fleet of cutters is depleted and not sufficient to protect against the threat to the country from the refugee crisis.

The warning by the Home Affairs select committee comes as it emerged that British ferry passengers will be protected by armed sea marshals or see their ships boarded by military marksmen amid fears of a terror attack in the English Channel."


Could be a bid to keep the batch 1's in service, which I heartily agree with.

[bobp]

8 more patrol boats are on order for the Border force. Hopefully we will see an increase in available manpower when they arrive in service. Agree that the River B1 could also have a role, perhaps with RNVR crews.

[Spinflight]

8 more patrol boats are on order for the Border force.

I must have missed this being announced. How many do they have at present? Three, four?

[Caribbean]

8 more patrol boats are on order for the Border force.

I must have missed this being announced. How many do they have at present? Three, four?

They currently have five cutters (though I think two are deployed in the Med) and they are getting eight RHIBs for inshore work, I believe. Currently there are only two Rivers around the UK, as one of them is in the Med as well.

[GibMariner]

The government also chartered MV VOS Grace for the Border Force for migrant operations in the Aegean. Can't remember if there was a second chartered vessel or not right now.

[bobp]

Perhaps we should switch the conversation to the Border Force thread.

[ArmChairCivvy]

they are getting eight RHIBs for inshore work

Amazing, anyway, this thread or another one?

[SKB]

Border Force Cutter thread: http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=196
PAC 24 RHIB thread: http://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=489
River Class OPV thread: here!

[RichardIC]

Being reported on Warship1 that float-out of HMS Forth could be very imminent:

status offlinejock
20 hours ago
The semi submersible barge Dina Launcher http://www.mmred.no/default.asp?side=visartikkel&ID=53 is currently being towed to the Clyde by the tug Stadt SLOEVAAG for the launch of HMS Forth, scheduled to arrive on Thursday ths week - 11/8

[GibMariner]

Being reported on Warship1 that float-out of HMS Forth could be very imminent:

status offlinejock
20 hours ago
The semi submersible barge Dina Launcher http://www.mmred.no/default.asp?side=visartikkel&ID=53 is currently being towed to the Clyde by the tug Stadt SLOEVAAG for the launch of HMS Forth, scheduled to arrive on Thursday ths week - 11/8

Thanks for posting, saw it this morning and didn't know what to think. From the photos seen recently, HMS Forth does seem to be close to completion and if she's still on course for commissioning in 2017 then you're right and she could be in the water quite soon.

The tug can be tracked here: https://www.vesselfinder.com/?imo=8414817

[GibMariner]

Tug STADT SLOEVAAG AIS showing up as alongside at the King George V Dock.

[GibMariner]

[Galloglass]

I'm not sure if anyone has noticed but it seems the Batch 1 Rivers are scheduled for the chop....https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-clyde-replaced

[Gabriele]

Yes, it is basically what the First Sea Lord said a while ago at the hearing with the defence committee. What an utter waste of money.

The bit about HMS Clyde is the most outraging, and also puts an early end to the "up to six" language. 5 it is.

Between early demise of still perfectly workable OPVs and the purchase of extremely expensive ones, this is by far the most expensive low-end OPV purchase in history.

[Caribbean]

Between early demise of still perfectly workable OPVs and the purchase of extremely expensive ones, this is by far the most expensive low-end OPV purchase in history.

Indeed - though the price is heavily distorted by the TOBA industrial model. It seems a tad unfair that the RN budget should bear the brunt of what is really a political and industrial policy

[PAUL MARSAY]

disposing of perfectly good River batch1 yet chartering ships for border force

[donald_of_tokyo]

disposing of perfectly good River batch1 yet chartering ships for border force

I share the "unhappy" nature of River B.1 going, but River B.1 will be too high standard for border force, so not surprising. It is the cost you need to pay to keep "home-built warship".

The real "unhappy" thing will come, if in near future the border force is strengthened, and actually start requiring 1500-2000t FL OPV AFTER HMG had sold the River B.1s. In other words, we need to think about the future of the border force NOW.

[Repulse]

Whilst I'd say that the UK Police Force should have the lead for everything within 3 miles of the shore, I'd say that the UK Border Force fleet should be disbanded and the RN fleet expanded to meet the need, hosting UK Border Force boarding parties.

That way the Rivers Batch 1 and P2000s could be put to better use.

[Old RN]

I know it will be seen as naive but given the size of the River B2s could they not be fitted with a very limited load out of Sea Ceptors (say 8). As I understand the cold launch system puts very limited limits on the ship structure, if the fire control solution is limited then it still has some credibility. We always look at other countries systems and consider their maximum potential, while looking at ours and only considering the weaknesses (I remember the "Threat Lectures" in the 1970s about the supposed 38 kt Krivaks armed with long range anti-ship missiles!). Given that the River B2s are having a computerised data management system that could be used with Sea Ceptor. Given the range of 25+nm and a potential surface role it would give some cheap threat potential?

They displace more than the Russian corvettes in the Caspian Sea that carry 1500nm Kalibr missiles!

[Engaging Strategy]

Whilst I'd say that the UK Police Force should have the lead for everything within 3 miles of the shore, I'd say that the UK Border Force fleet should be disbanded and the RN fleet expanded to meet the need, hosting UK Border Force boarding parties.

IMO that's completely the wrong approach. Remember that RN manpower and ships are significantly more expensive than their UKBF counterparts. The Batch 1 Rivers cost the MoD £40m each in lease and purchase costs, the Batch 2s cost £116m each. In comparison the 42m customs cutters operated by the UKBF cost £5m each and are undoubtedly cheaper to run and much leaner manned. There is no good reason for the military to be doing this task, it'd prove much more cost-effective to leave it with the civilian agency. Worse still it would draw even more funds and manpower away from core tasks and equipment necessary for the RN to remain effective as a military organisation.

The UK's problem (as I see it) is that its EEZ patrol, enforcement and monitoring functions are heavily fragmented, split between a number of agencies across several government departments:

RN Fisheries Protection Squadron-MoD
Police Maritime Units-Home Office
UK Border Force-Home Office
Scottish Fisheries Protection Agency-Scottish devolved government
Fisheries monitoring vessels-DEFRA
Coast Guard-Department for Transport

The way to get all this to work better is, to my mind, quite simple. Replace as much as possible (with the possible exception of the DEFRA stuff and some of the inland waterways policing) with a single, unified, paramilitary Coast Guard organisation.

That way the Rivers Batch 1 and P2000s could be put to better use.

The P2000s are completely unsuitable for the kind of work currently undertaken by the border force. At best they're only useful for monitoring, far too small and unstable for boarding ops.

[Repulse]

Any increase in the RN role would also need to come with an uplift in funds. My point is that the level of sophistication needed for these duties is increasing so unless you want to duplicate then use the leading service more. In addition, the need to monitor UK EEZ from hostile / competitor nations is increasing so more platforms are required. Overall, I think it is not only the best approach but ultimately the cheapest.

[shark bait]

I'd say that the UK Border Force fleet should be disbanded and the RN fleet expanded to meet the need

What would be the benifit to that?

The Royal Navy as an institution is not structured well structured to counter the threat. Operating huge ships out of 2 huge bases does not produce the coverage to counter the small ad-hoc nature of threat.