River Class (OPV) (RN)

[Repulse]

Given the 6 T45s and expected 8 T26s are going to be tied up on CBG escort duties for most of the time the OPVs and the T31s will be the mainstay of RN global presence deployments in my view.

[Caribbean]

LMM? OK - lets use a £25000 missile to fire a warning shot, shall we? LMM on the Sigma mount is an excellent upgrade for the secondary armament on a genuine warship, but its a bit OTT for a patrol vessel in peacetime (and in wartime I would be more concerned with getting some form of air defence onto OPVs - which a 57mm would contribute to significantly).

The point of putting a big, obvious, gun on the front of a patrol vessel is not so much to actually use it, its to demonstrate total overmatch and to actually reduce the likelihood of violence and frankly, nothing reduces the impulse towards violence better than having a BFG pointing in your direction. However, of course, if you do need to use it, it will have significantly more "impact" (please excuse the pun).

Donald-san - I would mostly agree with your task list, however I would move the counter-piracy task into the "may need 57mm" group and add "ad-hoc counter-terrorism tasking" into that group as well, on the basis that, though it may be thought excessive now, we don't know what the next 30 years will bring.

[marktigger]

but LMM being guided is much more ROE friendly.

However the River like the RFA's should not be on these tasks they should be tasking of proper warships and by doing them they give the evidence the treasury want to inflict further cuts. Given there are insuficient vessels to patrol home waters it is misguided to deploy them over seas.

[Old RN]

I may be seen as slightly optimistic, but given the supposed simplicity of its integration and fire control, if the OPVs had two quad packs of Sea Ceptor glued to the superstructure it would give them a potential impact that little else could achieve so cheaply. If I understand the claimed performance the Sea Ceptor has an anti-air range of over 25km, as well as a surface-to-surface mode (presumably out to at least the same range). Given its lack of maintenance requirements and simple fire control, it would not increase the crew level or operating costs. It would be a case of storing 8x6, (48), of the depot stored Sea Ceptors at sea! Keep the 30mm for real work and the Sea Ceptor for threat means. It may seem extreme but the Russian corvettes (?) of below 1000 tons in the Caspian carry 2000+km range cruise missiles!

[S M H]

If the navy could put a case for up gunning the patrol craft the 57mm gun with two 30 mm chain guns art of the bridge would make the rivers fit for standing tasks. I am aware that the deck penetration of the 57mm could be an issue. The present weapons fit is only good for a U.K. waters patrolling . Standing tasks need better weapons fit considering what the could be required on such ops. The elephant in the room is would George and the treasury mandarins reduce or scrap the G. P. frigates as they put all on the sacrifices on the alter for budget surplus. Lady Emily and dear leader would no doubt agree to this for three own party political priority reasons.

[marktigger]

by the time fictional Light frigate comes along we'll have a labour government!

[Caribbean]

However the River like the RFA's should not be on these tasks they should be tasking of proper warships

In an ideal world, I would agree with you. But it isn't

Given there are insuficient vessels to patrol home waters it is misguided to deploy them over seas.

Again, in an ideal world. Maybe we should be keeping the B1's then? Giving the BF more resources? Are these specifically naval issues? I'm in favour of creating a paramilitary UKCG, to take over most of the current Coast Guard, Border Force, SAR and even some of the C & E duties, as well as fisheries and North Sea oilfield patrol, but unfortunately, I don't see it happening in the near future.

but LMM being guided is much more ROE friendly.

Am I just being cynical in my old age, if I get the feeling that our ROEs wouldn't even allow us to fire one?

as well as a surface-to-surface mode

I don't think that the RN has taken up that option. Maybe, in time, though, they will be fitted to more platforms

by the time fictional Light frigate comes along we'll have a labour government!

Can I borrow your crystal ball please, I have a few bets I'd like to get down now, so that I can retire in comfort

[Repulse]

The argument of "we must not do something sensible incase the Treasury may do something stupid" must die. The Treasury will always do something stupid but please let's do our best to maximise what is left.

[marktigger]

Caribbean by the time the fictional light frigates are meant to be being built you are looking at 2030. So you have the 2020 & 2025 elections so I'd say its a fairly probable scenario that Labour will win one of these most probably 2025.

[Caribbean]

Caribbean by the time the fictional light frigates are meant to be being built you are looking at 2030. So you have the 2020 & 2025 elections so I'd say its a fairly probable scenario that Labour will win one of these most probably 2025.

Well, they would have to win the 2030 election to be in power in 2030+, regardless of what happened before then. However I don't see it having much impact on the FLF program (if the RN decides its suitable for their needs). It is by no means certain that Labour would either cancel or refuse to order the FLF, since they are just as wary of alienating the Scottish voter as the Tories. If Corbyn is still leading them, then I expect that the RN (sorry, the Peoples Maritime Defence Force) will end up with little more than OPVs and light frigates, with similar cuts to the Peoples Air and Land Defence forces. I also expect, in the event of a Corbyn-lead Labour party getting into power, that the UK will exit from Nato and Emperor Vladimir will be able to cross another item off his "to-do" list. ( And I may also have to apply for permanent residency in what will be, by then, a former BOT, or maybe someone else's colony).

But I digress...............

[ArmChairCivvy]

residency in what will be, by then, a former BOT, or maybe someone else's colony

Is it one of those that were already mortgaged once (when there was no more gold left, for the battleships to carry West-ward)?

[marktigger]

Caribbean by the time the fictional light frigates are meant to be being built you are looking at 2030. So you have the 2020 & 2025 elections so I'd say its a fairly probable scenario that Labour will win one of these most probably 2025.

Well, they would have to win the 2030 election to be in power in 2030+, regardless of what happened before then. However I don't see it having much impact on the FLF program (if the RN decides its suitable for their needs). It is by no means certain that Labour would either cancel or refuse to order the FLF, since they are just as wary of alienating the Scottish voter as the Tories. If Corbyn is still leading them, then I expect that the RN (sorry, the Peoples Maritime Defence Force) will end up with little more than OPVs and light frigates, with similar cuts to the Peoples Air and Land Defence forces. I also expect, in the event of a Corbyn-lead Labour party getting into power, that the UK will exit from Nato and Emperor Vladimir will be able to cross another item off his "to-do" list. ( And I may also have to apply for permanent residency in what will be, by then, a former BOT, or maybe someone else's colony).

But I digress...............

to continue the digression...I don't expect Corbyn to make it to the 2020 election!

[shark bait]

Agreed on the 40mm cta. Given the cost of it the weapon should be rolled out across the forces. Especially given the option it has for air defence/air burst rounds. More users = more ammo which in theory should bring down the unit costs. The accountants win as well.

The 40mm CTA would be a nice choice indeed. However it would need to be installed across the Navy for it to make sense, and then cost becomes prohibitive, but as a future upgrade path it is a great option.

I do think the 30mm is plenty, but a 40mm CTA is the absolute maximum before your introduce a logistical ball ache which a resource tight royal navy cannot afford.

Given the 6 T45s and expected 8 T26s are going to be tied up on CBG escort duties for most of the time the OPVs and the T31s will be the mainstay of RN global presence deployments in my view.

I don't think so. 14 proper escorts deployed at a ratio of 5/2 gives 5.5 permanently available. Routinely I don't expect there to be anything greater than a single T45 and single T26 with the carrier, and possibly the same with an amphibious force. So I think we can expect a maximum of 4 to be dedicated to escort duties, leaving 1.5 available for standing patrols. That is Kippon and APTS before the T31 is even considered.

The rivers simply aren't well suited to the long ranged patrols of the royal navy, too small and we don't have the right logistical network to support them.

What they are well suited to is a guard ship. In that role it can regularly return, resupply and rotate crew. It would make sense to keep them forward deployed like we do with the Falklands and fly the crews out, saving on transit costs. The best use for the rivers is forward deployed to the Caribbean, Falklands and Gibraltar.

[marktigger]

I would agree as a refit fitting the 40mm along with in the case of the T45 the 5in gun.

how many ships are still carrying 20mm GAM BO1 the E class survey vessels have them and I think the Hunt have them as additional armament

[donald_of_tokyo]

Japan coast guard (JCG) is introducing 40mm canon to stand-off (North Korean) special force boat armed with RPGs.

But, note that JCG continues to build ship equipped with 20mm guns as well as 30 mm guns, because a need for ships armed with smaller armaments but with larger hull number still remains.


When talking about ḤizbAllah SSM missile, I think Rivers armed with a 57mm gun may not solve the issue. You need good radar, wide (nearly 360deg, at least 270 deg) fire-arc (River design with large deck-house is NOT good at this), and what is more, decisive ROE for sudden reaction. Is it realistic to suddenly start shooting 10 rounds of 57mm shells to incoming target even when the Captain is sleeping (not on watch?), when there are merchant vessels behind?

This is what I am really not sure. Do anybody knows the actual tactics the terrorists take?

[Caribbean]

how many ships are still carrying 20mm GAM BO1 the E class survey vessels have them and I think the Hunt have them as additional armament

Apart from the B1 Rivers, I think its just the Echos and the RFAs (apart from the Waves) now, though the Archers are ffbnw. The Hunts have DS30Bs now. I think they also replaced one of their GPMGs with an HMG for Gulf service.

[Repulse]

The best use for the rivers is forward deployed to the Caribbean, Falklands and Gibraltar.

Add to that Diego Garcia and I agree a good forward based fleet. Forward basing the Rivers could be done with minimal RFA support.

[shark bait]

What would be the value in protecting Diego Garcia?

But yes, forward basing the Rivers could be done with minimal RFA support which is why it makes so much sense. The rivers are well suited to the job, and can help maintain a global presence in certain regions.

(if we wanted a token presence surely Singapore or Brunei would come before Diego Garcia, not actually suggesting that we should that though, just a passing thought)

[arfah]

What would be the value in protecting Diego Garcia?

Deterrence against Mauritian aggression.
Well, at least until global warming takes effect.

[shotleylad]

Hunt class 1x30mm, 3xMiniguns, 2xGPMG.

[marktigger]

Hunt class 1x30mm, 3xMiniguns, 2xGPMG.

they used to have DS30, 2x GAM Bo1 and 2 GPMG

[GibMariner]

HMS Mersey visit to Grand Cayman

Mersey arrived in George Town, Grand Cayman for a second attempt at visiting the UK Overseas Territory.

With high winds and rough seas cancelling her earlier port call, Mersey returned in better weather and took full advantage of her shallow draught to come alongside.

Most RN ships have to secure to buoys out at sea or go to anchor off George Town, meaning the sight of a white ensign in the port drew lots of attention, especially from visiting cruise liners and locals who are always keen to welcome the Royal Navy.

Grand Cayman is one of the three islands that make up the Cayman Islands and is situated just south of Cuba.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... and-cayman

[Caribbean]

HMS Mersey visit to Grand Cayman

Mersey arrived in George Town, Grand Cayman for a second attempt at visiting the UK Overseas Territory.

With high winds and rough seas cancelling her earlier port call, Mersey returned in better weather and took full advantage of her shallow draught to come alongside.

Most RN ships have to secure to buoys out at sea or go to anchor off George Town, meaning the sight of a white ensign in the port drew lots of attention, especially from visiting cruise liners and locals who are always keen to welcome the Royal Navy.

Grand Cayman is one of the three islands that make up the Cayman Islands and is situated just south of Cuba.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-la ... and-cayman

HMS Mersey isn't moored up in Grand Cayman today - presumably out joining the hunt for a local fishing boat posted missing yesterday morning with 3 adults and 2 children on board. Last spotted 12 miles offshore with one engine failed and seas worsening. It's not looking too good. RCIPS have their helo out, the USCG have a C130 searching and the local police and volunteers (50ft+ boats only) are struggling with the weather.

[GibMariner]

HMS Mersey isn't moored up in Grand Cayman today - presumably out joining the hunt for a local fishing boat posted missing yesterday morning with 3 adults and 2 children on board. Last spotted 12 miles offshore with one engine failed and seas worsening. It's not looking too good. RCIPS have their helo out, the USCG have a C130 searching and the local police and volunteers (50ft+ boats only) are struggling with the weather.

Thanks for the info, hope they're found & well. Perhaps another argument for the APT(N) ship to have an embarked helicopter? Could HMS Mersey have docked earlier in the week/last week? The RN usually doesn't post these kind of stories until after the ship has already left.

[marktigger]

given the enhanced role can these vessels RAS