River Class (OPV) (RN)

[ArmChairCivvy]

Of those, Egypt is in the gas game with Israel/ Cyprus/ Turkey/ Greece (and France!).

They are also on the brink of intervening in Libya... which is not unconnected to the above point.

[J. Tattersall]

I think the RN have already answered that question in the fact these ships are not being asked to do home waters EEZ duties like 95% of the worlds other OPV's with the same armament they are being asked to do forward deployed global patrol missions. I am not asking for the B2's to be made into a corvette like you keep making out. What I am asking for is that if we are going to ask these ships to conduct the tasks that we are that they have a base line anti air capability.

So it's there any evidence that they're being put unreasonably at risk?

[shark bait]

None at all. A River Class is absolutely useless offensively and defensively against that kind of threat, so the most reasonable thing to do is stay away.

[jedibeeftrix]

What are your thoughts on the value of a B2 with a 40mm+3P+CMS as a "Companion Escort" to work alongside a forward deployed GP Frigate.
In the gulf certainly, but perhaps also Singapore in the 2030's.

Predicated on the gov't determining that forward deployed assets are necessary, while recognising that we have insufficient hulls to surge a response quickly enough to a chokepoint threat - as happened end of last year in the Gulf.

[shark bait]

That's in danger of inventing a problem to solve.

Looking at the images Donald collected on the previous page makes me think that's the perfect role for the Rivers, just general security operations to wave the flag a bit and keep a lid on things so we don't escalate to the point of sending a frigate.

I think the Rivers a physically too small to do anything more than that and be on the other side of the world at the same time.

[Tempest414]

So it's there any evidence that they're being put unreasonably at risk?

None at all. A River Class is absolutely useless offensively and defensively against that kind of threat, so the most reasonable thing to do is stay away.

So the next question has to be if all it can do it paddle up and down staying out the way why send it to places like the Med at all

[Tempest414]

Oh well as I said we will have to wait and see what if anything comes from the RN review into the River B2's

[RichardIC]

River B2 seem to be good for:

- Fleet Ready Escort - where the word "escort" is used in its generic sense, meaning to accompany foreign warships as they transit through UK waters.
- A bit of defence diplomacy, as Donald posted with Cypriot forces.
- Assisting small vessels in difficulty in areas where this is a known problem (migrant patrols).
- Reassurance to the civilian population such as currently provided in the South Atlantic where there is a plausible but very low level threat. And a bit of resupply for a handful of hardy souls in South Georgia.

After that you really are looking for an itch to scratch. And upgunning them a bit, probably doesn't change things too much. They're just not fundamentally warships.

I think they're pretty much useless for HADR. Currently Argus seems to be a useful capability. Medway is just there to hold her hand.

The main problem with the B2s is they're so aesthetically pleasing they're difficult to dislike.

[Caribbean]

Though the B1s are doing the Fishery Protection stuff at the moment, that will probably get added to the list eventually. With the addition of a basic UAV or two, they would also have greater utility in the anti-smuggling role, making them quite useful in the Caribbean alongside Argus (in very general terms - let Argus concentrate on the North and West of the Caribbean, where the majority of Britain's interests lie, while the B2 hangs around the South and East Caribbean, where the majority of the smugglers can be found)

[donald_of_tokyo]

If any "up-equiping" is needed for River B2, it is several UAVs, as the top priority. It is useful in both fishery patrol and anti-smuggler tasks (as Caribbean-san says). Even if River B2s are sent to cover gray-zone patrol duties, in almost all cases what is difficult is not how to hit enemy, but how to identify it. There is no use of "long range" nor "beyond visual range", without clear Identifying Friend or Foe (IFF).

On the other hand, on "up-arming", inspired by the photo of HMS Trent in exercise with Cyprus navy, I thought it will be good to carry 5-LMMs on the 30mm turret. My point is, can RN promote export sells of LMM?

1: To counter terrorists, what is needed is a good "sniper/spotter", coupled with good "scout/IFF = UAV". With "spotting" by EO-FCS onboard, "sniping" can be done within 4-5 km range with the 30mm gun, but LMM can do better in longer range, up to 8 km. (But this is still in the "better be" regime, I agree.)

2: So the point is that, smaller navies might be more interested in "up-arming" their assets, than RN does on their OPV. Showcasing the "scout/spot/sniper" capability of the "30mm gun with LMM" will invoke export sells of LMM? LMM as a laser guided weapon is "fire but never forget until it reaches enemy". Unlike fire-and-forget missiles, operator in visual inspection can terminate aim if needed. Very good sniper, I think.

[Tempest414]

I have said for some time now that the Rivers need a good UAV or two to allow ships command to see OTH or eyes on boarding ops. As for 5 LMM fitted to the 30mm mount it would give the Rivers a Base line anit-air plus a longer range surface strike and given it is light missile the rivers could carry 5 ready on the mount plus 5 , 10 ,15 , 20 extra in the magazine. Also with kit like the man portable Hero 120 loitering weapon which can be launched from the flight deck and has a 40km and one hour flight time the B2's might have some use in the grey zone

[serge750]

River B2 seem to be good for:

- Fleet Ready Escort - where the word "escort" is used in its generic sense, meaning to accompany foreign warships as they transit through UK waters.
- A bit of defence diplomacy, as Donald posted with Cypriot forces.
- Assisting small vessels in difficulty in areas where this is a known problem (migrant patrols).
- Reassurance to the civilian population such as currently provided in the South Atlantic where there is a plausible but very low level threat. And a bit of resupply for a handful of hardy souls in South Georgia.

After that you really are looking for an itch to scratch. And upgunning them a bit, probably doesn't change things too much. They're just not fundamentally warships.

I think they're pretty much useless for HADR. Currently Argus seems to be a useful capability. Medway is just there to hold her hand.

The main problem with the B2s is they're so aesthetically pleasing they're difficult to dislike.

Totally agree, if there is a hint of more than a 20mm firing back then do not send in a river without back up, ie a frigate

[Ron5]

I think the RN have already answered that question in the fact these ships are not being asked to do home waters EEZ duties like 95% of the worlds other OPV's with the same armament they are being asked to do forward deployed global patrol missions. I am not asking for the B2's to be made into a corvette like you keep making out. What I am asking for is that if we are going to ask these ships to conduct the tasks that we are that they have a base line anti air capability.

So it's there any evidence that they're being put unreasonably at risk?

Yes. The RN looking at upgunning them

[jedibeeftrix]

That's in danger of inventing a problem to solve.

Looking at the images Donald collected on the previous page makes me think that's the perfect role for the Rivers, just general security operations to wave the flag a bit and keep a lid on things so we don't escalate to the point of sending a frigate.

I think the Rivers a physically too small to do anything more than that and be on the other side of the world at the same time.

but we [do] have that problem, and it happened less than a year ago:

iranians playing silly buggers, one t23gp rushing up and down the gulf, everyone realising that one escort cannot effectively deter up and down a three hundred mile column of vulnerable shipping.

we no longer have enough escorts to surge one adjacent to a problem theatre.

this isn't a everywhere problem to which a t31+b2 is the everywhere answer, but as long as the gulf is the artery to uk/allied trade it might just be an answer here...

[J. Tattersall]

Yes. The RN looking at upgunning them

So there's a link to an RN or MOD press release on up-gunning B2s?

[Caribbean]

this isn't a everywhere problem to which a t31+b2 is the everywhere answer, but as long as the gulf is the artery to uk/allied trade it might just be an answer here.

This is the real point. As I said a long time ago, possibly on this thread, the River B2s "aren't the force, they are the multiplier". Properly equipped (and protected) they would be a useful adjunct to a T23/T31, extending the range of their helicopter, putting boats in the water and just being physically present when the frigate is engaged elsewhere. Does anyone really think the Iranians would have attempted landing a boarding party by helicopter onto a tanker in international waters, if it was accompanied by an RB2 with just a 30mm gun, never mind a 40mm or LMM. Even a RM team, put aboard from the RB2, would have stopped that nonsense.

I think we all tend to overlook the fact that three or four modern tankers or container ships can carry the same fuel or freight as a 120-ship convoy in WW2 (and at two to three times the speed). The largest container ships carry more than 20,000 TEU (equivalent to 400,000t if fully laden), the same as 40 Liberty ships, so when you see a single frigate escorting three or four tankers through the Gulf, you are seeing the equivalent of an entire WW2 convoy. That's quite a lot of value (sorry to bring money into this) and probably deserves a bit more than a single frigate to protect it.

[Tempest414]

Yes. The RN looking at upgunning them

So there's a link to an RN or MOD press release on up-gunning B2s?

there was / is a review ( No mention it has come to a end and no action will be taken ) and the term used by the RN was ( how we might enhance the lethality of the B2's) and this came from rear Admiral Halton

[Caribbean]

So there's a link to an RN or MOD press release on up-gunning B2s?

Speaking at DSEI in September 2019, RN Commander Operations, Rear Admiral Paul Halton said: “We are thinking about how we might enhance the lethality of the Batch II OPVs”.

Quoted from the STRN site. That's the only public statement about it that I've seen

[Ron5]

already answered

[RichardIC]

So there's a link to an RN or MOD press release on up-gunning B2s?

This is the extent of it as far as I'm aware. Not an official source. We don't know if Rear Admiral Halton was quoted correctly, the wider context, or how far that thinking was developed.

STRN then ran a speculative piece on what the options may be.

[J. Tattersall]

So there's a link to an RN or MOD press release on up-gunning B2s?

This is the extent of it as far as I'm aware. Not an official source. We don't know if Rear Admiral Halton was quoted correctly, the wider context, or how far that thinking was developed.

STRN then ran a speculative piece on what the options may be.

Interesting that he uses the phrase 'enhanced lethality '. This could of course mean larger calibre guns and missiles (at the higher end creating a de facto corvette). It could also mean something along the lines of improved 30mm ammunition, improved fire control, improved mount with better target tracking, dual ammo feeds, third party targeting etc.

[ArmChairCivvy]

along the lines of improved 30mm ammunition

Made the USN change some plans from 57 to 30 mm

[dmereifield]

So there's a link to an RN or MOD press release on up-gunning B2s?

This is the extent of it as far as I'm aware. Not an official source. We don't know if Rear Admiral Halton was quoted correctly, the wider context, or how far that thinking was developed.

STRN then ran a speculative piece on what the options may be.

Interesting that he uses the phrase 'enhanced lethality '. This could of course mean larger calibre guns and missiles (at the higher end creating a de facto corvette). It could also mean something along the lines of improved 30mm ammunition, improved fire control, improved mount with better target tracking, dual ammo feeds, third party targeting etc.

That's my pessimistic view (as opposed to all the chat of uparming them to something like a light corvette), they could just be talking about some cheap UAVs to enhance surveillance and targeting

[ArmChairCivvy]

The USN reason for going for a smaller calibre was the holing effect under the waterline, achieved against e.g. swarming boats. Nordic Ammo strikes again... explained in the last three para of this longish quote
https://gentleseas.blogspot.com/2018/11 ... i-uuv.html
- this is what I meant by increased lethality, without the need to upgun (exc. perhaps have several 30 mm mounts, not all carried at all times)

[Caribbean]

Interesting that he uses the phrase 'enhanced lethality '. This could of course mean larger calibre guns and missiles (at the higher end creating a de facto corvette). It could also mean something along the lines of improved 30mm ammunition, improved fire control, improved mount with better target tracking, dual ammo feeds, third party targeting etc.

I think we've all had a bit of fun speculating what could be, but I think you are on the right track. I suspect that any visible changes will be at the lower end of the spectrum (though I would be very happy to be proved wrong). The Hunts in the Gulf got an additional 50 cal to cover the stern arc to "improve their lethality" (following a USN study that determined how quickly the various small calibre weapons could stop a speedboat), so I suspect that we are going to see something of that nature. Basically stuff that can be borrowed from elsewhere and bolted or carried on by the RM ship protection team (which could include shoulder-launched LMM), as required for the mission (though implementing the second ammunition feed and acquiring 30mm airburst would be a logical "permanent" upgrade, as would the ability to provide data feeds to third parties).