River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Repulse
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Tempest414 wrote:The B2 Rivers really are good looking ships
Would look even better with a 57mm gun :D
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by dmereifield »

Repulse wrote:
Very interesting. If memory serves, didn't we previously hear a rumour about one being based in Gibraltar? I wonder how that will impact the plans to replace the Scimitar class there.

Two to the far East? What ti make of that?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Clive F »

What will they do? Can they do anything except say "Hello, we are the Royal navy, we can sink rowing boats but no alot else, would like to come onto you ship to look around but we don't have a helecopter tp get there, so you'd best be coming to us."

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Caribbean »

Clive F wrote:What will they do?
Publicly, it will be "presence and goodwill", a bit of maritime security, humanitarian assistance, well-publicised co-operation with local authorities over anti-piracy and anti-smuggling work. In reality, I suspect that their real work will be intelligence gathering.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Clive F wrote:What will they do? Can they do anything except say "Hello, we are the Royal navy, we can sink rowing boats but no alot else, would like to come onto you ship to look around but we don't have a helecopter tp get there, so you'd best be coming to us."
1: "No ship, no presence at all for a decade" (this was the case in late 2010s in the far east) vs "frequent visit of OPV" makes big difference in diplomacy, intelligence, and deeper relation with local navies.

2: Also, permanent existence of these OPVs will greatly relax the temporal deployment of escorts/LPDs/LSDs or even CVTF, because RN "knows" the environment of the theater.

3: Sending 1 River B2 OPV needs 36-40 crew at there. With simple armaments/equipments, maintenance load is not so large. Sending one T23GP in Persian gulf means 190 crews sent there. With heavy armaments and powerful drive trains, its maintenance load is also very large. Sending an OPV is several times "easier" than sending an escort.

---------
detail.... : Then, with what equipment for what tasks?
- HMS Forth in Falkland island has good air-cover = no need of helicopter hanger. Its armament is modest good enough with current Argentina military status, considering 4 Typhoons placed there.
- HMS Medway in Caribbean has RFA Argus now for hurricane season HADR support (perfect). She will be alone in non-hurricane season (not perfect = better to carry a helo). But, the best way for air cover may not be on-board helo. A few fixed wing cheap air cover is the best answer. Also, anti-smuggler operations is international collaboration, not singleton.
- HMS Trent, if going to Gibraltar, no problem. She has good air cover and has many tasks to do. (migrants, north African good-will visit, replace HMS Echo when she went to the Black sea ...).
- On HMS Tamar and Spey to Singapore? Depends. The district is very large, with variety of "problems". They can do what HMS Echo did in Black sea at South China sea. They can do migrants control, smugglers, and many good will visits. If needed, they can carry up to 4 RHIBs. But, even the baseline River B2 has many many tasks to do. RN is sadly virtually a new comer there, and good-will visit will be very important in the first few years (there are dozens of nations there, on which RN did not visit for several decades...)

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by abc123 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:
Clive F wrote:What will they do? Can they do anything except say "Hello, we are the Royal navy, we can sink rowing boats but no alot else, would like to come onto you ship to look around but we don't have a helecopter tp get there, so you'd best be coming to us."
1: "No ship, no presence at all for a decade" (this was the case in late 2010s in the far east) vs "frequent visit of OPV" makes big difference in diplomacy, intelligence, and deeper relation with local navies.

2: Also, permanent existence of these OPVs will greatly relax the temporal deployment of escorts/LPDs/LSDs or even CVTF, because RN "knows" the environment of the theater.

3: Sending 1 River B2 OPV needs 36-40 crew at there. With simple armaments/equipments, maintenance load is not so large. Sending one T23GP in Persian gulf means 190 crews sent there. With heavy armaments and powerful drive trains, its maintenance load is also very large. Sending an OPV is several times "easier" than sending an escort.

---------
detail.... : Then, with what equipment for what tasks?
- HMS Forth in Falkland island has good air-cover = no need of helicopter hanger. Its armament is modest good enough with current Argentina military status, considering 4 Typhoons placed there.
- HMS Medway in Caribbean has RFA Argus now for hurricane season HADR support (perfect). She will be alone in non-hurricane season (not perfect = better to carry a helo). But, the best way for air cover may not be on-board helo. A few fixed wing cheap air cover is the best answer. Also, anti-smuggler operations is international collaboration, not singleton.
- HMS Trent, if going to Gibraltar, no problem. She has good air cover and has many tasks to do. (migrants, north African good-will visit, replace HMS Echo when she went to the Black sea ...).
- On HMS Tamar and Spey to Singapore? Depends. The district is very large, with variety of "problems". They can do what HMS Echo did in Black sea at South China sea. They can do migrants control, smugglers, and many good will visits. If needed, they can carry up to 4 RHIBs. But, even the baseline River B2 has many many tasks to do. RN is sadly virtually a new comer there, and good-will visit will be very important in the first few years (there are dozens of nations there, on which RN did not visit for several decades...)
Agreed, with exception of Singapore. It's no place to send an OPV. There's simply no use.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

abc123 wrote:Agreed, with exception of Singapore. It's no place to send an OPV. There's simply no use.
Thanks. But it is not clear for me. From Bengal bay to Japan sea, or even into the middle of Pacific, the district is very large and there are many types of "issues" there.

- Tsunami relief in Indonesia
- Papua Newguinea and Solomon island stabilization
- Pirates in Malacca strait and Migrant control in Timor sea
- Training with FPDA (Singapore, Malaysia, Australia and NZ), Thai (they have 2 River B2s there), Bangladesh (the have 2 Ex-Caslte class OPVs there), Sri Lanka and Brunei, and Timor-Leste ...
- IS related activity in Philippine

Addition of two RN OPV is NOT significant in warfight capabilities, there, I agree. But, on that regard, sending an escort is also not significant. RAN has 11 DDG/FFs, NZ 2, Singapore 6 (not to say China, US, Japan, South Korea etc...). A single escort (which was actually sent annually before 2010) does not add a lot, either.

But, "existence or not" is a huge difference. This is because the 2 OPVs are backed by a full-set of CVTF, and all the UK-soft-power (which is, yes, very significant). Now UK's message in the district is clear = "NO interest" (sorry to say). At least with 2 OPVs, UK will start saying, "I DO have interests there".

A ship with RN white ensign "on site" is a big message.

# Having an interest there is good or bad, is another issue.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by SW1 »

Probably been of more benefit to allies In the far east to have sent a Wave tanker or continued with a survey ship than an opv.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by dmereifield »

SW1 wrote:Probably been of more benefit to allies In the far east to have sent a Wave tanker or continued with a survey ship than an opv.
Why?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

If we are sending two B2's to the Far East then they should be armed properly i.e 57mm and two 20mm plus a UAV to allow the ships command eyes OTH or eyes on boarding ops.

As for having a Wave class always East of Suez I am with SW1 on this fleet tanker are always in demand

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

dmereifield wrote:
SW1 wrote:Probably been of more benefit to allies In the far east to have sent a Wave tanker or continued with a survey ship than an opv.
Why?
A Wave tanker will allow 3 or 4 escorts to stay at sea on station for much longer and at the same time be a big presence plus with its speed armament and helicopter plus up to 4 ribs or a mix of ribs and LVPC its a bigger better OPV

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Tempest414 wrote:If we are sending two B2's to the Far East then they should be armed properly i.e 57mm and two 20mm plus a UAV to allow the ships command eyes OTH or eyes on boarding ops.

As for having a Wave class always East of Suez I am with SW1 on this fleet tanker are always in demand
Why? :D

Actually, I understand your point. But, I'm afraid, there is not much difference between Singapore deployment compared with Caribbean and/or Medditeranian. All three has air cover, good allies (not completely singleton), and Med and Singapore has "similar" level of variety in threats. Why Trent is OK with 30mm gun, while Tamar and Spey needs 57 mm gun? And, do not forget adding a 57 mm gun to 2 OPVs means losing something else.
Tempest414 wrote:
dmereifield wrote:
SW1 wrote:Probably been of more benefit to allies In the far east to have sent a Wave tanker or continued with a survey ship than an opv.
Why?
A Wave tanker will allow 3 or 4 escorts to stay at sea on station for much longer and at the same time be a big presence plus with its speed armament and helicopter its a bigger better OPV
Yes, but sending a Wave (with crew >100) needs more resource than sending two OPVs, not to say one. Two OPVs can provide up to 600 sea-going days, but a Wave? May be 200 days in total ?

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by SW1 »

dmereifield wrote:
SW1 wrote:Probably been of more benefit to allies In the far east to have sent a Wave tanker or continued with a survey ship than an opv.
Why?
Well as was highlighted up post our allies in the Far East are not short of warships or opvs most have a number the UK adding one or two doesn’t add that much.

What they don’t have and it goes for many in Europe too is logistical back up to keep them at sea and in so much is a force multiples for them particularly our 5 eyes partners.

Being a RFA with around 80 crew they have much better accommodation than on a warship for extended deployments and have the ability as tempest said to offer a helicopter and rib capability as well as have stores for disaster relief. So offers defence engagement across the board

Also having a replenishment vessel pre positioned out east can mean in the event of an emergency that may require the deployment of RN warships they have full replenishment capacity as soon as they arrive.

The offering of a survey vessel offering up to date underwater charts for uk and allied surface and sub surface operations in the region is probably something not as well resourced and something always in demand.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by jedibeeftrix »

Repulse wrote:
Tempest414 wrote:The B2 Rivers really are good looking ships
Would look even better with a 57mm gun :D
if we must have cost-effective solutions - how about the 40mm that is going to be used in duplicate on the T31 fleet?
and with just enough radar/cms to make it useful against boghammer/uav/rpg style threats.
enough to make it a useful [companion] escort in places like the gulf (with a big brother), and yet still cheap with light manning and low maint...

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

Trying to base a River Class in Singapore would be a pathetic look for the Brits. There are few thing that would make HMG look more out of touch with how the world works these days.

A Wave tanker would be a much better look, logistic support to allies in the region, as well to RN ships passing through. It's a much more subtle approach that doesn't propel the 'colonial gunboat' image.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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shark bait wrote:Trying to base a River Class in Singapore would be a pathetic look for the Brits. There are few thing that would make HMG look more out of touch with how the world works these days.
This.
Especially in Singapore that has 6 modern frigates and 12 Independence class ships, or Australia that will have more T26 than UK.
If you have something meaningful to send, like say CBG or strong SAG and/or SSN- then of course. If not, don't compromise the image of the UK. Then stick with what you can properly cover ( I wonder where is that these days, maybe N. Atlantic? ) and that's it.
It's like applying for a porn star with a 1 inch long dick. :thumbdown:
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Yes, but sending a Wave (with crew >100) needs more resource than sending two OPVs, not to say one. Two OPVs can provide up to 600 sea-going days, but a Wave? May be 200 days in total ?
Yes but lets say if a Wave class refuels and supplies 50 other ships in its 200 days at sea allowing them to each stay at sea for 20 extra day each it would mean the Wave class would have supported 1200 sea going days including its own 200

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Qwerty »

Sending a couple of OPV’s seems a bit too late but it’ll do.

They’ll be carrying out operations against pirates, prevention of rogue activities such as illegal fishing or stripping war graves of metals & artifacts, enforcing UNCLOS in disputed areas will tick a few boxes.

Ultimately it’s about diplomacy. The U.K. flying the flag, supporting defence engagement, providing political will to regional friends and extending influence, subtly. Soft power.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Tempest414 »

I am all for two rivers being sent but I have always supported the idea of a Wave class East of Suez full time

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Qwerty wrote:Sending a couple of OPV’s seems a bit too late but it’ll do.

They’ll be carrying out operations against pirates, prevention of rogue activities such as illegal fishing or stripping war graves of metals & artifacts, enforcing UNCLOS in disputed areas will tick a few boxes.

Ultimately it’s about diplomacy. The U.K. flying the flag, supporting defence engagement, providing political will to regional friends and extending influence, subtly. Soft power.
Yeah, Churchill probably thought the same thing when he sent a Repulse and PoW to Singapore back in 1941. And we all know how that ended up. :think: Singapore and HK would have fallen anyway, butthe RN would have two capital ships more... You know that saying about empty rifle- two people are afraid of it- the one that holds her and the other guy.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

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Got to admit, I had my doubts this would ever happen.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Repulse »

Clive F wrote:What will they do?
About 70% of what a T31e can do at 25% of the cost and manpower.

With some very modest (a few £ millions)upgrades to sensors, weapons and off board systems, could be 80% of what a T31e could do. As @Donald-san points out, having permanent presence like the Echos have done gives significant value. They are not supposed to be Colonial warships to keep the natives in check, they match the UK position of having global interests. CEPP is the big stick.

Also, these will not be the only assets. Littoral Strike Groups still seem to be on the agenda so can see RFA vessels in supporting roles, like we see in the Caribbean currently with RFA Argus. Personally, assuming we sort out the FSS replacements, would put RFA Fort Victoria permanently EoS.
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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by Qwerty »

abc123 wrote:
Qwerty wrote:Sending a couple of OPV’s seems a bit too late but it’ll do.

They’ll be carrying out operations against pirates, prevention of rogue activities such as illegal fishing or stripping war graves of metals & artifacts, enforcing UNCLOS in disputed areas will tick a few boxes.

Ultimately it’s about diplomacy. The U.K. flying the flag, supporting defence engagement, providing political will to regional friends and extending influence, subtly. Soft power.
Yeah, Churchill probably thought the same thing when he sent a Repulse and PoW to Singapore back in 1941. And we all know how that ended up. :think: Singapore and HK would have fallen anyway, butthe RN would have two capital ships more... You know that saying about empty rifle- two people are afraid of it- the one that holds her and the other guy.
You’re comparing apples from 79 years ago with fresh oranges.

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by abc123 »

Qwerty wrote:
abc123 wrote:
Qwerty wrote:Sending a couple of OPV’s seems a bit too late but it’ll do.

They’ll be carrying out operations against pirates, prevention of rogue activities such as illegal fishing or stripping war graves of metals & artifacts, enforcing UNCLOS in disputed areas will tick a few boxes.

Ultimately it’s about diplomacy. The U.K. flying the flag, supporting defence engagement, providing political will to regional friends and extending influence, subtly. Soft power.
Yeah, Churchill probably thought the same thing when he sent a Repulse and PoW to Singapore back in 1941. And we all know how that ended up. :think: Singapore and HK would have fallen anyway, butthe RN would have two capital ships more... You know that saying about empty rifle- two people are afraid of it- the one that holds her and the other guy.
You’re comparing apples from 79 years ago with fresh oranges.
Don't agree. The principle is still the same: Sending woefully weak forces into a crisis spot to make a political statement.
And I think that we will agree that SCS is crisis spot par excellance today, just like Singapore and DEI was then.

Also, pardon my French, if you have a 1-in dick, you keep it in the pants and say that you are not interested in that region or something like that, not wawing with it and saying: Look look, what a great dick I have. :lol:

Also, if you want to offend Malaysia and Indonesia, just send RN ships to fight piracy in Strait of Malacca.
Fortune favors brave sir, said Carrot cheerfully.
What's her position about heavily armed, well prepared and overmanned armies?
Oh, noone's ever heard of Fortune favoring them, sir.
According to General Tacticus, it's because they favor themselves…

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Re: River Class (OPV) (RN)

Post by shark bait »

What does sending a patrol boat to Singapore achieve?

It's nothing, the British contingent will be an insignificant compared to a city state operates the region, and it sure as hell doesn't make the Brits look like a tough guy in front of China.

All it does it make the British look like a sad little nation trying to cling on to fetish for the empire.
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