UK Defence Forum

Wouldn't they look nice landing on the deck of a Canadian T26

shark bait wrote:that probe is interesting!

It sure is
- jets cannot match the speed (for use of the facility that has just een "photo" spotted)
- who/ what can?
- are we going to be using our own assets (Herc J's... upgraded for this; following what the French have done, to support their Special Forces)
- or somebody else's (and will they be there, when and where needed)?

Lots of question marks, but the 2015 SDSR talked about helos flying out further. And as there are no new types coming in, (for SF) it can only be Merlin or Chinook... Or?

Can't help thinking that the Canadians have done it backwards... S-92 sar, AW101 asw ~ AW101 sar, S-92 asw just seems like a good way to waste your money and the aircrafts abilities.


FWIW, I am aware of the back story of how they got here.

(Jane's by IHS Markit) 15th August 2018

August sees the latest Royal Navy Commando Merlin HC4 helicopters deploy onto the UK's new carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth.
Colonel Lenny Brown Royal Marines, Commanding Officer, Commando Helicopter Force (CHF) talks about their new aircraft, roles and future operational capabilities including Joint Personnel Recovery (JPR), Deployed SAR and Maritime Intra-Theatre Lift and Air to Air refuelling.

(Forces TV) 10 Dec 2018

The latest batch of Royal Navy Commando Helicopter Force pilots and aircrew are nearing the end of several years of training. Exercise Merlin Storm is the culmination of their flying training and student pilots from 846 Naval Air Squadron are just days away from achieving a childhood dream.

Poland to acquire AW101 helicopters for anti-submarine duties

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ri-457305/

Warsaw will sign a production contract with Leonardo Helicopters later this month covering its purchase of AW101s configured for anti-submarine warfare (ASW) duties with the Polish navy.

Polish defence minister Mariusz Blaszczak confirmed the planned buy on 8 April, stating that Warsaw intends to finalise an order during April. The acquisition is believed to include four AW101s.



Ahead of the deal being finalised, Leonardo Helicopters and Poland's defence ministry have signed an offset agreement worth Z400 million ($106 million) in relation to the order.

"The offset agreement provides the Polish Ministry of National Defence with the commitment for establishing in the Military Aviation Works No 1 in Lodz critical maintenance capabilities for the AW101 helicopter and its dedicated mission equipment," the company says. This confirms "Leonardo's commitment to a solid and long-term co-operation with the Polish armed forces and Polish industry," it adds.

In addition to meeting Warsaw's airborne ASW requirements, the 15t-class AW101s will also will be capable of performing combat search and rescue (CSAR) tasks, Blaszczak says.

Leonardo Helicopters confirms that the rotorcraft will be assembled at its Yeovil manufacturing site in Somerset, the UK.

Warsaw had previously indicated that its naval helicopter requirement would be for up to eight aircraft configured for ASW and CSAR missions.

Poland early this year also confirmed an order to acquire four S-70i Black Hawk helicopters from Sikorsky, with the armed rotorcraft to be used in support of special forces operations.

Cirium's Fleets Analyzer records a current active fleet of 149 AW101s, with the type flown by military and government operators in Algeria, Canada, Denmark, Indonesia, Italy, Japan, Nigeria, Norway, Portugal, Saudi Arabia, Turkmenistan and the UK.

Good news for Yeovil

We could really do with another dozen ourselves.

Even enough to replace the ones that are going to used for Crowsnest system would be Brilliant, then perminently convert a few early models for Crowsnest duties.

Then in 10 -15 yrs time if a better UAV type is bought then it wouldn't be that bad to lose early model merlins IMO.

serge750 wrote:then perminently convert a few early models for Crowsnest duties.

The current Merlin fleet is all HM2 standard. So the only early model are the eight HM1 that weren't converted to 2s. They've almost certainly been stripped of anything usable and goodness knows if they're structurally intact.

Good news indeed for Yeovil. Hope to hear the UK is buying some more as well.

Williamson need to go to the Treasury again for a bail out to order a few more of these as a matter of urgency. Alternatively cancel half of the all singing and dancing Chinooks instead.

Or hopefully to buy some MV22 Osprey to perform the ASAC role, making more Merlins available for ASW.

Scimitar54 wrote:Or hopefully to buy some MV22 Osprey to perform the ASAC role, making more Merlins available for ASW.

That ship has sailed, give it a rest.

But Osprey for AAR, LRI, CSAR: now we're talkin bro!!!

We should have bought six to eight Ospreys instead of those SF Chinooks. It will be interesting if orders start coming in for Merlin how many other nations consider it as the profile of ASW continues to rise with the perceived threat from Russia and China on the up. It is considered one of if not the best ASW chopper out there.

Lord Jim wrote:considered one of if not the best ASW chopper out there.

Part of that being endurance and reliability in bad weather; interesting that it came on top also for Poland that operates in the Baltic Sea.
- may be they had made a field trip to Denmark, to see how they are getting on with their Romeos. Or to Sweden, that binned the best ASW helicopters (then), only to face a decade-long struggle to bring the NH-90 into service in its ASW incarnation (not that it has been a dance on roses -or perhaps exactly that- for the other versions... but on the relative scale)

ArmChairCivvy wrote:Part of that being endurance and reliability in bad weather; interesting that it came on top also for Poland that operates in the Baltic Sea.
- may be they had made a field trip to Denmark, to see how they are getting on with their Romeos. Or to Sweden, that binned the best ASW helicopters (then), only to face a decade-long struggle to bring the NH-90 into service in its ASW incarnation (not that it has been a dance on roses -or perhaps exactly that- for the other versions... but on the relative scale)

Poland was using a Norwegian SAR Merlin for evaluation in-country late last year, but I’m sure they’ll have spoken to many allies. The Danes had a lot of early availability problems but I think they were supply-chain related rather than anything inherently wrong with the helicopter.

That ship may indeed have sailed, but palletised "cargoes" can be transhipped (at sea if necessary) if there is the will and if the need to do so arises.

The only way I can see the Osprey in FAA service is if they can reduce the requirement for Merlins on the QEC carriers. They will not replace Merlin in the ASW role, so it would have to be in ASAC. A Flight of Osprey (say 5 or 6) to cover AAR, ASAC & COD with palletised specialised "kit" might swing it. Not sure about CSAR though.

As much as i'm happy because of Yeovilton, but I do wonder why Poland needs such expensive and high-end ASW helicopter? I mean, considerning the importance of ASW and Navy in general for Poland... ( land-power )

They are looking to replace their ex-Soviet era Mil-14 Haze, which they have managed to keep flying and even conducted a minor upgrade. They use these for shore based ASW in the Baltic for which they are ideally suited. Given the proximity to the Russian enclave where Russian submarines operate from this is a very much need capability.

Russian Submarines operating in the Baltic, effectively outflanking them?

Scimitar54 wrote:Russian Submarines operating in the Baltic, effectively outflanking them?

Considering that the Polish Navy currently consists of 1 old Kilo, 2 very old Koebben, 2 old Perry's, 3 FAC and a single patrol boat, I do wonder is it even possible to outflank them.

Scimitar54 wrote:That ship may indeed have sailed, but palletised "cargoes" can be transhipped (at sea if necessary) if there is the will and if the need to do so arises.

Crowsnest requires Merlin systems that are not "palletised". IOW, you cannot take the removable Crowsnest equipment from a merlin and put it in an Osprey and flick a switch. Doesn't work that way.

How long will it be before the Osprey in USMC service acquires an AEWAC?

My apologies, the word "capability" was missing.