AW101 Merlin Helicopter (RN)

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Old RN
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Old RN »

So, realistically, the 4 stored could be returned to service?

Ron5
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Ron5 »

dyvroeth wrote:
RichardIC wrote:
Let's concentrate on the important things... It's Grey!!

Green was always fine for the Junglie Sea Kings.
Does anyone understand the case for painting the Merlin HC.4 grey ? It surely can't be to make savings by standardising on grey paint across the whole fleet ?
My guess is that there's not much call for jungles these days. Ocean, deserts or snow fields more likely.

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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Ron5 »

Old RN wrote:So, realistically, the 4 stored could be returned to service?
Photos were posted not that long ago of the missing 8. Very poor & incomplete condition. I'd say most unlikely we'll see them flying again.

LordJim
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by LordJim »

Going by past experience, those stored Merlins have probably already been partly stripped for spares. The only chance any of them have of coming into service would be to replace one or more write offs from the frontline fleet. Oops just noticed the post above!

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shark bait
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by shark bait »

Can see from the images they are being eaten for spare parts.

Only a matter of money to put them back inter service, buying the parts that have been 'nicked'.

There was a point where new Typhoon's where being delivered to the RAF, having parts robbed and put into long term storage before being called up for operations and having the bits put back, so its not unheard of.
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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by ArmChairCivvy »

shark bait wrote:so its not unheard of.
True, but the Tiffie situation is quite unique
- trying to keep the line ticking over
- while at the same time husbanding flight hours so that enough of the fleet will be good to 2040
Ever-lasting truths: Multi-year budgets/ planning by necessity have to address the painful questions; more often than not the Either-Or prevails over Both-And.
If everyone is thinking the same, then someone is not thinking (attributed to Patton)

KyleG
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by KyleG »

dyvroeth wrote: Does anyone understand the case for painting the Merlin HC.4 grey ? It surely can't be to make savings by standardising on grey paint across the whole fleet ?
They're a different grey than the HM.2s, so probably not

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SKB
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Re: Merlin helicopters

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Dahedd
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Dahedd »

Pinched from a post on Snafu.



Japanese Merlin down. Right mess though all 3 crew escaped with minor injuries according to the post I saw.

james k
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by james k »

The foreign aid budget. The services are one of the principle suppliers of foreign aid through their disaster relief efforts and military aid to civil powers let the helicopters be paid for by that department. It is what the Italian Government and others do. Try thinking outside the box, or simply try thinking.
RichardIC wrote:
Pongoglo wrote:Lets just upgrade the eight we have in store and back to the fleet - would get my vote.
Here we go again: Paid for with what?

What people don't seem to be getting is there is a £20bn budget deficit. Anything that costs extra money isn't going to happen.

More helicopters costs money. Upgrading helicopters that are stored will possibly cost only slightly less - if they are still stored and in any way capable of being upgraded that is. We don't know do we?

Dahedd
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Dahedd »

Ref the above comment I'd be looking to fund a hospital ship out of the aid budget. Look at the amazing job RFA Argus did in Sierra Leone. DifD should be funding a future replacement.

james k
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by james k »

Really? do you have a colour chart?
KyleG wrote:
dyvroeth wrote: Does anyone understand the case for painting the Merlin HC.4 grey ? It surely can't be to make savings by standardising on grey paint across the whole fleet ?
They're a different grey than the HM.2s, so probably not

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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Aethulwulf »

One of the potential savings measures that has been reported recently is for the RN to give up its 28 Wildcat and go to an all Merlin fleet.

The RN currently has 30 Merlin HM2 and another 25 Merlin being upgraded to HC4. If 28 Wildcats are lost, could the Merlins take on all roles?

Clearly, a single type fleet will result in savings across support, maintenance and training. But the Merlin HM2 would need money spent to be integrated with Sea Venom and Martlet missiles.

Could some saved money also be used to have some of the HC4s be upgraded to HM2s?

Could some saved money be used to have what remains of the 8 HM1s be upgraded to HM2s?

If the RN ended up with a fleet of (for example) 42 HM2s and 20 HC4s (and some UAVs), could they absorb the loss of Wildcat with little drop in capabilities?

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shark bait
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by shark bait »

If they have floated the idea of scrapping Wildcat they must have come to the conclusion its not feasible.

Wildcat builds on a battle proven formula, with integration and infrastructure costs already sunk. Wildcat is also suppose to be much cheaper to operate than the big maintenance heavy beast that is Merlin.

But on the face of it, there is little Wildcat can do that Merlin can't, so it could be done, accepting much lower aircraft availability across the fleet.

Looking at it the other way around, Wildcat can do ASW, but not AEW, so Merlin can't be scrapped either.
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by RetroSicotte »

Simple fact is if they dropped the Wildcats, then they would be forced to buy more Merlins in a very very short time after they suddenly realise "Uh oh! Not enough helos!"

When have we ever heard that sentence before?

Oh yeah, early 2000's.

And men died because of it.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

I also see no merit in disbanding whole Wildcat fleet. No merit there is, from what point of view it comes from?

Reducing P-8A buy is more easy (200M GBP per unit or so?). Accepting "only 14 escorts" is more reasonable (free up 1.25B GBP for 5 T31e). Also, reducing F35B is also good option (with only 7-8, 1B GBP can be saved). On the other hand, disbanding whole Wildcat fleet cannot provide this big merit. Wildcat is not that expensive...

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RichardIC
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by RichardIC »

Aethulwulf wrote:Clearly, a single type fleet will result in savings across support, maintenance and training. But the Merlin HM2 would need money spent to be integrated with Sea Venom and Martlet missiles.

Could some saved money also be used to have some of the HC4s be upgraded to HM2s?

Could some saved money be used to have what remains of the 8 HM1s be upgraded to HM2s?

If the RN ended up with a fleet of (for example) 42 HM2s and 20 HC4s (and some UAVs), could they absorb the loss of Wildcat with little drop in capabilities?
The purpose of the current fire sale isn't save to reinvest, it's save to fill a budgetary black hole. So it's fair to say forget any extra anything.

The remaining 8 HM1s are also by now in little bits and probably aren't fit for conversion to anything apart from razor blades.

marktigger
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by marktigger »

give merlin air to surface missiles and wildcat wouldn't be missed Merlin is a much more capable platform across a broader spectrum of operations than wildcat can muster.

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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Mark-san.
You mean RN can go with only 30 helos?
Even if they are all "multi purpose" Merlin, 30 will not be enough, I think.

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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by marktigger »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Mark-san.
You mean RN can go with only 30 helos?
Even if they are all "multi purpose" Merlin, 30 will not be enough, I think.
depends largely on size of fleet. However there are long term savings that can be had having a single helicopter in service. That might encourage some investment in more Merlin

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Thanks for your anawer. So, 30 is enough?

From scratch, 28 Wildcat may cost as much as, uhmm, 10-14 Merlin, I guess. As. we already have Wildcats, and selling them will not provide the same cost, it will be less.

Even ignoring this fact, Is this number, 40-44, enough?

Also I think using Large Merlin to chase pirates is not cost effective. Do anyone know the difference of flying costs per hour of Wildcat and Merlin?

Opinion3
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by Opinion3 »

Eggs in one basket springs to mind...

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shark bait
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by shark bait »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Also I think using Large Merlin to chase pirates is not cost effective. Do anyone know the difference of flying costs per hour of Wildcat and Merlin?
This is the problem with the suggestion. Merlin is so expensive, so the increased operational costs would likely offset any logistical savings by removing Wildcat.

I don't know the figures for Wildcat, but Merlin was more than twice as expensive per flight hours than Lynx.
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by MRCA »

Ever been an operational deployment of merlin on type 45?

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SKB
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Re: Merlin helicopters

Post by SKB »

Just did a quick images search, didn't find a single pic of a Merlin on a T45.... :?

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