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Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
143
52%
Kongsberg NSM
63
23%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
43
16%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
19
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 276

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Halidon
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Halidon » 08 Feb 2019, 17:51

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Same news by Xav-san

Canadian AESA looks compact. May be able to be added to the T26's own mast?

https://www.navalnews.com/news/2019/02/ ... -contract/

Do you mean by replacing Artisan on it's spinner or by fully adopting the Canadian configuration? Both LM's architecture (SSR) and Raytheon's (AMDR-S/SPY-6) are scale-able to fairly compact dimensions, so the potential is certainly there to fit panels onto such a capacious combatant. However, to my knowledge the RN's T26 mast wasn't designed for an upgrade to fixed panels. Swapping Artisan for a new rotating AESA might be workable, but going to fixed panels probably requires the existing mast to be be replaced or rebuilt.

matt00773 wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:According to a Lockheed Martin representation at SNA 2019 the radar is a solid state SPY AEGIS fire control radar. Not sure though on the specific model but I assume SPY-6 variant - GaN TR modules would explain smaller size of planar arrays. Not sure if this could be fitted to the UK T26 mast if that's what you're asking.

Presentation from 3:00 minute mark:

https://www.navalnews.com/event-news/sn ... t-sna-2019

Lockheed's SSR is an S-band AESA family, which includes LRDR and the Japanese Aegis Ashore radars.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 13 Feb 2019, 20:10


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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 14 Feb 2019, 08:09

Latest picture of HMS Glasgow in build at BAES Govan.

image.jpg
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby bobp » 16 Feb 2019, 15:17

Poiuytrewq wrote:Latest picture of HMS Glasgow in build at BAES Govan.


Excellent find there aren't many pictures about of the T26.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 16 Feb 2019, 16:30

bobp wrote:
Poiuytrewq wrote:Latest picture of HMS Glasgow in build at BAES Govan.


Excellent find there aren't many pictures about of the T26.
I just wish the progress was a bit quicker.

Try and catch Michael Portillo on the BBC iplayer when he was doing his train journeys programme in Glasgow. It aired last week. Lots on the history of Glasgow shipbuilding culminating in a visit to Fairfields in Govan were the T26 is in build.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby albedo » 16 Feb 2019, 17:16

Poiuytrewq wrote:Latest picture of HMS Glasgow in build at BAES Govan.


Out of curiosity from a landlubber who doesn't know much about these things, how thick is the hull skin? Difficult for me to get much scale from that picture but it looks like it might only be 5-10mm thick. It certainly looks relatively thin.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby bobp » 17 Feb 2019, 15:23

I would say 15mm to 20mm. Notice the stiffeners around the Hull they give it its strength.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Poiuytrewq » 17 Feb 2019, 15:48

albedo wrote:....it might only be 5-10mm thick. It certainly looks relatively thin.
That figure is unlikely to be in the public domain but your estimated thickness should be pretty much spot on. I would estimate around 8mm to 10mm but it will vary across the hull.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 17 Feb 2019, 17:04

Looking at X-band radar again and the USN approach where their Office of Naval Research, ONR, makes it clear it considers X-band the only suitable wavelength for its next generation surface radar. No sign of the RN envisage installing on T26 though will be fitted to Hunter class with S-band radar for volume air search. Reminds of the old saying spoil the ship for a ha'pworth of tar, they spoil something completely by trying to make a small economy, though when MOD funding T26 programme for the first three ships at a total cost of £4,346M (per the Nov 2018 MOD Defence Equipment Plan) its not surprising.

The thinking behind the USN ONR FXR, Future X-band Radar, to replace their current X-band radar the AN/ SPQ-9B, requirements feature a high power lightweight solid state phased array X-Band radar with GaN power amplifier technology and with its low weight suitable for installation at height high above the waterline, near or at the top of ship masts for max surface range. Optimising its bandwidth to avoid low elevation multipath effects which make it harder to detect anti-ship sea-skimming missiles and support surface warfare gun engagement.

ONR has contracted LM, NG and Raytheon to perform initial studies in support of the FXR development programme and under their Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) programme placed a contract with Saab for their GaN X-band radar, their GaN 1X rotating antenna weighs 295 kg, option of fixed panel arrays.

X-band radar has the advantage of a smaller wavelength with its high definition and smaller antenna than the S-band radars used by many surface ships eg Artisan on T23 & T26. Antenna size requirements decrease as frequency increases for a given beam width, though conversely, microwave amplifiers offer less power at higher frequencies and signal losses are worse, so operating at X-band is a trade between those considerations, but offset by use of S-band radar.

Note that USN will be fitting their future destroyers and frigates with the new GaN S-band SPY-6/EASR radars plus the FXR.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby matt00773 » 17 Feb 2019, 19:46

NickC wrote:Looking at X-band radar again and the USN approach where their Office of Naval Research, ONR, makes it clear it considers X-band the only suitable wavelength for its next generation surface radar. No sign of the RN envisage installing on T26 though will be fitted to Hunter class with S-band radar for volume air search. Reminds of the old saying spoil the ship for a ha'pworth of tar, they spoil something completely by trying to make a small economy, though when MOD funding T26 programme for the first three ships at a total cost of £4,346M (per the Nov 2018 MOD Defence Equipment Plan) its not surprising.

The thinking behind the USN ONR FXR, Future X-band Radar, to replace their current X-band radar the AN/ SPQ-9B, requirements feature a high power lightweight solid state phased array X-Band radar with GaN power amplifier technology and with its low weight suitable for installation at height high above the waterline, near or at the top of ship masts for max surface range. Optimising its bandwidth to avoid low elevation multipath effects which make it harder to detect anti-ship sea-skimming missiles and support surface warfare gun engagement.

ONR has contracted LM, NG and Raytheon to perform initial studies in support of the FXR development programme and under their Foreign Comparative Testing (FCT) programme placed a contract with Saab for their GaN X-band radar, their GaN 1X rotating antenna weighs 295 kg, option of fixed panel arrays.

X-band radar has the advantage of a smaller wavelength with its high definition and smaller antenna than the S-band radars used by many surface ships eg Artisan on T23 & T26. Antenna size requirements decrease as frequency increases for a given beam width, though conversely, microwave amplifiers offer less power at higher frequencies and signal losses are worse, so operating at X-band is a trade between those considerations, but offset by use of S-band radar.

Note that USN will be fitting their future destroyers and frigates with the new GaN S-band SPY-6/EASR radars plus the FXR.
X-band frequency radar does offer higher resolution by default but there's a lot that can be done with advanced wave forms and detection algorithms. This is how Artisan and SAMPSON with S-band can detect threats to the size of a cricket ball - depending on range. RN don't seem to be too fussed by this and seem to be confident threats can be dealt with. Also, despite the smaller size of GaN modules, everyone seems to be mounting them at the same height as the heavy PESA units - so not much benefit seems to be gained by the technology. The AMDR SPY-6 stack includes both S-band and X-band - exactly the same as the current setup with SPQ-9B sitting at the top providing horizon scan in X-band. X-band is not new for USN warships - just an update to technology.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby jimthelad » 17 Feb 2019, 22:58

Currently SPY-6 only is working in S band. There are software and hardware faults on the X band unit.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby matt00773 » 17 Feb 2019, 23:13

jimthelad wrote:Currently SPY-6 only is working in S band. There are software and hardware faults on the X band unit.
Indeed, the X-band component will not be ready when SPY-6 is rolled out from 2023 - due to be available in later batches and well into the 2020s. They will continue to use the SPQ-9B rotating radar for X-band illumination until then.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Old RN » 18 Feb 2019, 06:24

The current X-band radar on USS Fitzgerald failed to see a massive merchant ship bafore :mrgreen: they collided near Japan in 2017! :mrgreen:

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 18 Feb 2019, 07:09

Old RN wrote:The current X-band radar on USS Fitzgerald failed to see a massive merchant ship bafore :mrgreen: they collided near Japan in 2017! :mrgreen:


There is "social acceptance" of electronic data only in peacetime steaming, though having 1/8th of the crew allocated to it is meant to provide safeguards.

This is a bit old, so the conclusions (by the USN) should be known now, as to any cyber involvement in the repeat incidences:
" By CIMSEC 2017-08-29 19:03:50

[By Chris Demchak, Keith Patton, and Sam J. Tangredi]

These are exclusively the personal views of the authors and do not necessarily reflect the views of the U.S. Naval War College or the Department of Defense.

Security researchers do not believe in coincidences. In the past few weeks, a very rare event – a U.S. Navy destroyer colliding fatally with a huge commercial vessel – happened twice in a short period of time. These incidents followed a collision involving a cruiser off Korea and the grounding of a minesweeper off the Philippines, and have now resulted in the relief of a senior Seventh Fleet admiral. Surface warfare officers (SWOs) look to weather, sensors, watchstanders, training requirements, leadership and regulations (COLREGS) as possible contributing factors to the collisions.

Cyber security scholars, in contrast, first look to the underlying complex technologies trusted by the crew to determine the proper course of action"

If we get many 'Kimbels' as in " relief of a senior Seventh Fleet admiral" the Pacific Fleet might soon run out of admirals?
- on the other hand, getting advance notice of this new kind of 'Pearl Harbour' can only be a good thing

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 18 Feb 2019, 07:50

NickC wrote:Reminds of the old saying spoil the ship for a ha'pworth of tar, they spoil something completely by trying to make a small economy


Not really true, Artisan is a perfectly capable radar for the intended role. The RN's T26 is not intended to have broad area air defence capabilities, the RN have little requirement for more of that thanks to the highly capable T45.

For detecting sea skimmers, or other threats within visual range Artisan should be highly capable mainly thanks to some state of the art signal processing and software derived from the Sea Viper system. Artisan should require fewer scans to create a high quality data point sufficient for weapons release, coupled with the extra height thank to the low weight it gives the T26 crucial extra seconds to counter a sea skimmer.
@LandSharkUK

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby seaspear » 18 Feb 2019, 09:55


I have placed this short video here as it is pertinent to navigation and communication breakdowns apologies for being off thread

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 18 Feb 2019, 12:26

matt00773 wrote:
X-band frequency radar does offer higher resolution by default but there's a lot that can be done with advanced wave forms and detection algorithms. This is how Artisan and SAMPSON with S-band can detect threats to the size of a cricket ball - depending on range. RN don't seem to be too fussed by this and seem to be confident threats can be dealt with. Also, despite the smaller size of GaN modules, everyone seems to be mounting them at the same height as the heavy PESA units - so not much benefit seems to be gained by the technology. The AMDR SPY-6 stack includes both S-band and X-band - exactly the same as the current setup with SPQ-9B sitting at the top providing horizon scan in X-band. X-band is not new for USN warships - just an update to technology.[/quote]

'The AMDR SPY-6 stack includes both S-band and X-band' AN/SPY-6 is only S-band

jimthelad wrote:Currently SPY-6 only is working in S band. There are software and hardware faults on the X band unit.


AN/SPY-6 is S-band, there is not nor ever has been an X-band version with "software and hardware faults on the X band unit" , original plan for the AMDR was for both new X and S band radars for the Burke III, the X-band was cancelled to keep within budget at the time and continue to use the X-band AN/SPQ-9B until later, now proceeding with the new FXR

Old RN wrote:The current X-band radar on USS Fitzgerald failed to see a massive merchant ship bafore :mrgreen: they collided near Japan in 2017! :mrgreen:


The investigation into the Fitzgerald collision conducted by Rear Adm. Brian found that the X-band radar switch that toggles between short to long pulse was inoperable and left fixed in long pulse mode. Radar should have been in short pulse mode for higher-fidelity view of what’s closer to the ship to aid the watch standers. Seven sailors died, not something to make like of.


shark bait wrote:
NickC wrote:Reminds of the old saying spoil the ship for a ha'pworth of tar, they spoil something completely by trying to make a small economy


Not really true, Artisan is a perfectly capable radar for the intended role. The RN's T26 is not intended to have broad area air defence capabilities, the RN have little requirement for more of that thanks to the highly capable T45.

For detecting sea skimmers, or other threats within visual range Artisan should be highly capable mainly thanks to some state of the art signal processing and software derived from the Sea Viper system. Artisan should require fewer scans to create a high quality data point sufficient for weapons release, coupled with the extra height thank to the low weight it gives the T26 crucial extra seconds to counter a sea skimmer.


You raise interesting point that if Artisan not for broad area defence why use S-band, you can apply to the same "state of the art signal and processing requiring fewer scans to create a high quality data point sufficient for weapons release, coupled with the extra height thank to the low weight (X-band would be lighter) it gives the T26 crucial extra seconds to counter a sea skimmer" to a X-band radar which has twice the definition of an S-band radar.

No doubt as always a trade off and value judgement, S-band as a better as a long range and all round radar , though perhaps use the intermediate C- band as all round radar or X-band with its higher definition for surface radar. Artisan as smaller lower cost derivation of the Sampson S-band which is designed for broad area defence, or a more expensive dual radar system with S and X-band radar? Other navies using dual radars eg USN S and X, Italians with the PPA full with C and X and similar with Japan with their FCS 3 again with C and X, whereas French FTI with new SeaFire 500 is a GaN four panel array S-band.

The French Horizon AAW class Forbin destroyer with its EMPAR C-band radar and PAAMS shot down a US Coyote Mach 2 sea skimming missile target in 2012, as far as know no Artisan/SeaCeptor equipped frigate has been tested to prove its capability against Mach 2 sea skimmers, so have to take on faith its effective.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 18 Feb 2019, 18:17

This is not news just ill informed trolling.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 19 Feb 2019, 12:57

My understanding is that the successful trials of Artisan/SeaCeptor with T23 have used subsonic targets drones, presuming the Mirach and/or Firejet small aerial targets, max speed 450 & 530 mph respectively.

Re my previous post the USN use several target drones including the Coyote Mach 2+ anti-ship supersonic target missile for simulating missile threats to test ship missile defence systems (radar/CMS/missile), supersonic ski-skimming are currently in widespread use and would expect more so when T26 becomes operational from 2027.

USN contracted for an additional fifteen Coyote's in December including one for US Army for $46.5M/ $3.1M each and last week USN funded a study for the integration of a deployable chaff system into Coyote intended to support the emulation of multistage supersonic missile threats such as the Klub at the point where the vehicle bus stage and supersonic terminal stage separate.

Would argue it a priority that RN conduct trials with Artisan/SeaCeptor against Coyote to confirm system capability to defend T23/26 against supersonic anti-ship ski-skimming missiles, it would cost. The French Navy thought it necessary to purchase a Coyote to test the Aster/PAAMS system.

https://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabil ... tsheet.pdf
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby matt00773 » 19 Feb 2019, 13:22

NickC wrote:My understanding is that the successful trials of Artisan/SeaCeptor with T23 have used subsonic targets drones, presuming the Mirach and/or Firejet small aerial targets, max speed 450 & 530 mph respectively.

Re my previous post the USN use several target drones including the Coyote Mach 2+ anti-ship supersonic target missile for simulating missile threats to test ship missile defence systems (radar/CMS/missile), supersonic ski-skimming are currently in widespread use and would expect more so when T26 becomes operational from 2027.

USN contracted for an additional fifteen Coyote's in December including one for US Army for $46.5M/ $3.1M each and last week USN funded a study for the integration of a deployable chaff system into Coyote intended to support the emulation of multistage supersonic missile threats such as the Klub at the point where the vehicle bus stage and supersonic terminal stage separate.

Would argue it a priority that RN conduct trials with Artisan/SeaCeptor against Coyote to confirm system capability to defend T23/26 against supersonic anti-ship ski-skimming missiles, it would cost. The French Navy thought it necessary to purchase a Coyote to test the Aster/PAAMS system.

https://www.northropgrumman.com/Capabil ... tsheet.pdf
I'm not sure this is T26 news so I'll just provide a high level response. The Artisan radar went into sea trials 2013 before going into service in 2016 - many complex scenarios were part of its assessment. The CAMM missile system went in to service in May last year after rigorous testing to prove it meet all RN requirements and could deal with present and foreseeable future threats.

https://www.itv.com/news/2018-05-24/850 ... o-service/

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news ... nse-system

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 20 Feb 2019, 11:19

The Royal Navy has not publically announced any supersonic interception tests, not even with Sea Viper.

This is what I sometimes mean by that the UK likes to talk about things, and France likes to show things. The latter definitely projects a more solid statement.

I'm very surprised the RN hasn't pushed to show they can do this.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 20 Feb 2019, 12:00

RetroSicotte wrote:The Royal Navy has not publically announced any supersonic interception tests, not even with Sea Viper.


May be it was just so long ago; TD has noted some in his Complex Weapons -series:
"2011 also saw the first ASTER test firing against a theatre ballistic missile (TBM) target, an Israeli Black Sparrow, fired from an F-15. The Black Sparrow is designed to simulate a SCUD-B ballistic missile.

By 2012, other Tye 45’s had conducted their test firings and MBDA had produced their thousandth ASTER missile. A successful test had also been conducted against a supersonic sea skimming target, the ATK GQM-163A Coyote, flying at 5m and Mach 2.5."

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 20 Feb 2019, 12:03

Understand Australia looking for an ASW CMS for T26 Hunter, Ultra system will be fitted to the T26 Canadian Surface Combatant, CSC. Thales makes the bold claim their BlueScan ASW CMS to take anti-submarine warfare to the next level.

CMS will have to integrate the Hunter class Ultra S2150 HMS; Thales S2087/CAPTAS 4 independent tow VDS and TAS which have two separate towed elements the active hard body transmitter and passive receive array; Ultra’s S2170 Surface Ship Torpedo Defence (SSTD) system or SLQ-25 Nixie a third towed element; MH-60R with sonobuoys and a Raytheon AN/AQS-22 airborne low-frequency (ALFS) dipping sonar and LWTs.

Some options, sure there are others

Thales developmental BlueScan CMS architecture introduced at Euronaval 2018, Thales say the sonars in service today deliver increasingly high performance and acoustic data in such huge quantities that is becoming more and more difficult to process by humans. The BlueScan system will provide sonar operators with an accurate picture of the acoustic situation and transmit only high-value data, the integrated acoustics systems to gives naval forces a tactical advantage by adopting a collaborative approach to acoustic detection with multiple sensors, mentions operating in bi-static and multi-static modes, featuring real-time multi-sensor data fusion and analysis with big data, artificial intelligence, new digital technologies to support real-time decision-making.

The USN LM AN/89(V)15 system which provides multi-sensor track correlation and target track management control, and forwards data to the ship’s weapons and decision-support systems, works together with the ship's active and passive hull sonar, multi-function towed array, sonobuoy processing, torpedo alerts, fire-control system, sensor performance predictions, embedded operator, and team training systems.

Ultra M2S2 in association with GD Canada and Raytheon Canada for the 12 Halifax class life extension project and CSC.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 20 Feb 2019, 13:08

ArmChairCivvy wrote:By 2012, other Tye 45’s had conducted their test firings and MBDA had produced their thousandth ASTER missile. A successful test had also been conducted against a supersonic sea skimming target, the ATK GQM-163A Coyote, flying at 5m and Mach 2.5."

The French Navy tested Horizon with Aster against that exact kind of target in that exact year.

I think wires just got crossed, seems certain to be that test.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Ron5 » 27 Feb 2019, 17:26



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