UK Defence Forum

Forget the T31e, the T26e is the best bet in town and we should invest big

could this affect the MOD to order more T26's?

Remember when HMG said that the T31e was to be the ship we hoped to export to the world?!
Time to bin the whole T31 idea and just build 13 T26's. Eight fitted for and five without ASW gear if necessary.
You could save a lot of money from just binning two seperate designs and two seperate groups of design staff and have just the one.

Repulse wrote:Forget the T31e, the T26e is the best bet in town and we should invest big

Surely this is now the time to invest further in the T26 hull to produce credible £500m Tier2 GP, ASW and AAW variants.

With Australia ordering 9 and potentially Canada ordering 15, it's difficult to see how HMG can justify only ordering 8 and making up the shortfall with 5 stretched OPV's.

With Tier1 and Tier2 options based on the T26 hull, the UK could corner a large part of the Frigate market for years to come.

Won't our chums in France, Germay, Spain and Italy be pleased.

It pays to invest

Shit the bed that's good news! If there was ever any doubt what the UK could export surely it's clear now, not cheap shit!

I'd certainly advocate what others are suggesting above, question is if we do bin the T31 how to the RN mind the gap out to 2027?

shark bait wrote:Shit the bed that's good news! If there was ever any doubt what the UK could export surely it's clear now, not cheap shit!

I'd certainly advocate what others are suggesting above, question is if we do bin the T31 how to the RN mind the gap out to 2027?

Taken at face value the recent type 23 useage and type45 for that matter and a known personnel problem some may ask what gap.

Yep, even Radio 4 reported on it saying four of the T-23s had had zero sea days this year and the average time at sea for the escort fleet was thirty days

Government of Canada delivers on its commitment to the Navy by announcing next steps in fleet procurement
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-service ... ement.html

Poiuytrewq wrote: T26 hull to produce credible £500m Tier2 GP, ASW and AAW variants.

Hold your horses!
- GP @ 500
-ASW @ 750-ish
-AAW more... as the nxt-gen will have to have ABM, even if only in the (Aster) "point" defence disguise

Maybe speed up type 26 to deliver the first one in 2025 and add to more to give 10 then start the MHPC program to deliver 14 Venari-100 meter Multi mission Sloops with the first on coming on line in 2023 ( a bit of a push I know but maybe possible ) this could give the RN a fleet of 16 tier 1 ships and 19 tier 3 ships and if needs be sell off the B2 rivers as the Venari -100s come on line with an over all fleet of 30 to 35 hulls

Tempest414 wrote:Do we think this could sway USN thinking that would be interesting

I doubt it. The present USN leadership might be moved off their requirement for a "proven" hull, but the T26 team would need to drop the cost to under $1bn USD while still building in a US yard. They want something fast and affordable now, performance is not the driving requirement.

how many ships do they want maybe a outside chance ( remember the old saying lies dam lies and statistics ) could come into play

Doesn't BAe own one of the major shipyards in the US? Surely if the production rate is high enough and with the quantity they want to order, getting the T-26e under $1Bn should be an issue if it is based on either the Canadian or Australian variants. If they want an ASW platform none of the competition can match the T-26. The USN knows the RN and UK are good at ASW platforms and the T-26 brings a couple of innovative capabilities to the table. Add to that the fact that two allies navies have bet the future navies on the design so I wouldn't write it off.

Halidon wrote:They want something fast and affordable now

That is the real cost of the fantasies and day dreaming in the navies of the West; when they thought that there would not be any 'real' opposition
... we want it, too

ArmChairCivvy wrote:

Poiuytrewq wrote: T26 hull to produce credible £500m Tier2 GP, ASW and AAW variants.

Hold your horses!
- GP @ 500
-ASW @ 750-ish
-AAW more... as the nxt-gen will have to have ABM, even if only in the (Aster) "point" defence disguise

I think we have our wires crossed.

The T26 is now king of the hill as far as Tier1 ASW Frigates is concerned.

What I am suggesting (and have been for a while) is that HMG should now take this opportunity to invest in a Tier2 version of the Type 26, with an FTI equivalent price tag. This would be a vessel with a much simpler propulsion setup, 76mm main armament and have the TLAM capability and Mission Bay deleted. This Tier2 variant could be tailored to the buyers requirement with ASW, AAW and GP configurations.

Many nations will now want to get involved in the T26 programme but for most it will be cost prohibitive. This Tier2 variant (built on the T26 hull) would allow BAE to cater for both ends of the market with the same basic hull form and superstructure.

The T31 programme could be swiftly merged with the MHPC programme to bridge the gap and RN could rebuild the Frigate fleet, within budget, with whatever variants it requires.

Be grate if other countries might be interested but the expense per ship might be just too much for the likes of NZ Brazil or India ,or the need for that capable a ship ,shame though it's looking like a popular design

Now there is potientially quite a lot of ships would for later batches of ships and potiential new ones is there any benefit from getting people building blocks in local ship yard with assembly in uk aus or Canada for countries not wishing to do final assembly. The aus CEAFAR 2 Radar and that model could be there bit common to all and the Canadains and ultra doing good things with the stern and tail and the like. Maybe a way to get cost down. Common training and spares holding contracts may reduce the real cost of a platform it’s thru life support.

SKB wrote:

Remember when HMG said that the T31e was to be the ship we hoped to export to the world?!
Time to bin the whole T31 idea and just build 13 T26's. Eight fitted for and five without ASW gear if necessary.
You could save a lot of money from just binning two seperate designs and two seperate groups of design staff and have just the one.

Great news of course, but isn't the point of T31 that we want to actually built ships in the UK and export them, rather than just export the design (aka T26). Much better return to UK plc that way

All good news folks just need to sell Japan a ge class or 2 now lol

Does anyone know how much the Government makes in license fees etc for a T26. Bet it's not that much. I doubt it's enough to finance another 4 or 5 T26 for the RN.

dmereifield wrote:isn't the point of T31 that we want to actually built ships in the UK and export them, rather than just export the design (aka T26). Much better return to UK plc that way

Precisely. Though there is some money to be made in the Damen model of "assisted foreign build", it's not as lucrative (in overall national terms ) as building ships ourselves. Aus. and Canada have their own industrial capacity, so we won't be making much (as a nation) beyond a share of the license fees.

Im not sure there was any opportunity for jobs for exporting these ships complete ,but the focus should be developing the technology these ships will need over there lifetimes that is where I expect a real return would be ,whether the U.K companies take this role in researching designing could BE something to wait and see certainly companies of other countries also commit to R&D

I cannot see the UK actually exporting completed ships that are as complex as the T-26 anytime soon. Now there could be some sales fir variants of the MHPC to nations with limited homegrown building capacity.

Lord Jim wrote:there could be some sales fir variants of the MHPC to nations with limited homegrown building capacity.

Replicating what Canada has done for NZ & Chilean frigates might be more lucrative... and it does not need to be "for old hulls only". That "limited" capacity referred to is often baby steps (=metal bashing) towards the ambition of sovereign capability... in the undefined future, like in "free beer, tomorrow"
- so: decades of repeat business, but it needs to be established first (am I talking about T31eee? ) ... answers onto the General thread, pls

Here they all are,Very well done to all involved