Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:(if not, T45 cost must not include PAAMS cost, which is not)
But it does. As quoted by HMG, T45 UPC contains cost of PAAMs per ship and T45 R&D includes cost of PAAMS development.

In fact it was the cost overrun on PAAMS development that was used by Geo Brown as an excuse to cancel T45's 7 & 8.

JohnM
Donator
Posts: 155
Joined: 15 Apr 2020, 19:39
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Ron5 wrote:
JohnM wrote:The way I read it, the £640 million would be just the construction costs, much is the same way the actual construction costs of the T31s is $250 million... then you have to add everything else (GFE, etc.). Wouldn't be surprised is the final cost of the 5 T26 Batch 2 would be close to £700-750 million...
What are you assuming for GFX and additional costs?

Most of the extra in the T31 program is for CAMM which is not a GFX for the T26, the construction/modification of shore facilities, and of FOC testing. None of these would apply to additional T26's.
The Mk-41 VLSs and the main gun, for example, were bought directly by HMG, weren’t they? Or am I wrong? If they were, that’s an additional cost to the supposed £640 million for Batch 2… glad to be corrected…

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

JohnM wrote:
Ron5 wrote:
JohnM wrote:The way I read it, the £640 million would be just the construction costs, much is the same way the actual construction costs of the T31s is $250 million... then you have to add everything else (GFE, etc.). Wouldn't be surprised is the final cost of the 5 T26 Batch 2 would be close to £700-750 million...
What are you assuming for GFX and additional costs?

Most of the extra in the T31 program is for CAMM which is not a GFX for the T26, the construction/modification of shore facilities, and of FOC testing. None of these would apply to additional T26's.
The Mk-41 VLSs and the main gun, for example, were bought directly by HMG, weren’t they? Or am I wrong? If they were, that’s an additional cost to the supposed £640 million for Batch 2… glad to be corrected…
Good question. I don't know :(

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ron5 wrote:
JohnM wrote:The Mk-41 VLSs and the main gun, for example, were bought directly by HMG, weren’t they? Or am I wrong? If they were, that’s an additional cost to the supposed £640 million for Batch 2… glad to be corrected…
Good question. I don't know :(
Although just a guest,
- main gun contract (July 2016) was before the 3 initial T26 contract (Jul 2017), and on the latter contract timing, it is said that the £3,7B includes the early acquired equipment costs.
- Mk.41 VLS was contacted by BAE from LM: " ... Warship-builder BAE Systems has signed up Lockheed Martin to deliver Mk 41s for the first three of the anti-submarine warfare frigates it has under contract...." (https://www.defensenews.com/naval/2018/ ... -launcher/)

So, I think it is natural to think they are included.

JohnM
Donator
Posts: 155
Joined: 15 Apr 2020, 19:39
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by JohnM »

Thank you Donald-san

Enigmatically
Member
Posts: 345
Joined: 04 May 2015, 19:00

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Enigmatically »

Certainly through life costs are not considered as much as they should. That said I have seen them influence decisions, and even be the deciding factor

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

Just to clarify some of these apples with oranges comparisons and horse trading. The figures from the NAO in their latest defence report as discussed at the Public Accounts Committee this week are are as follows:

Budgeted whole-life cost as at March 2021 (£m)

Type 26 (8 ships) 21,648 (£21.6bn) >> £2,683m per ship

Type 31 (5 ships) 2,031 (£2bn) >> £406m per ship

So that's over 6 and a half T31s for each Type 26.

J. Tattersall

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by J. Tattersall »

Enigmatically wrote:Certainly through life costs are not considered as much as they should. That said I have seen them influence decisions, and even be the deciding factor
Hang on doesn't the treasury require all investment appraisals to be carried out on a long term basis; e.g. 25 years of life rather than just on procurement cost!

Caribbean
Senior Member
Posts: 2784
Joined: 09 Jan 2016, 19:08
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Caribbean »

Ron5 wrote:No it doesn't!! There's no extra development & design for an extra 3 T26's so a contract for them would be 3 time 640 million plus initial maintenance. No R&D!
Well - I would certainly do better as an accountant than you! The marginal cost of three extra T26 would be £1920 million, but the overall cost (i.e. program cost) per hull would be £758 million (i.e variable cost + fixed costs/ number of hulls). That assumes, of course, that the entire £1.3b is fixed costs, which it may not be. We are talking about two different views of the same thing.
Ron5 wrote:be modified to be as quiet as a T26
Setting up your strawman, eh, Ron. No-one said that it would be as quiet as a T26 - quite the opposite. The point was more whether it would be quiet enough to do the job (which involves sitting in close proximity to a rather noisy aircraft carrier).
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
Winston Churchill

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Caribbean wrote:Well - I would certainly do better as an accountant than you! The marginal cost of three extra T26 would be £1920 million, but the overall cost (i.e. program cost) per hull would be £758 million (i.e variable cost + fixed costs/ number of hulls). That assumes, of course, that the entire £1.3b is fixed costs, which it may not be. We are talking about two different views of the same thing.
Still talking out of your ass. If they ordered three more T26 (which was the point under discussion) they would only have to budget for build cost and not for R&D. So 2 billion for all three. Not 3 times 738 million.

In other words, amortizing R&D over a production run is purely an accountants view of the world, it does not translate to going forward costs.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Caribbean wrote:Setting up your strawman, eh, Ron. No-one said that it would be as quiet as a T26 - quite the opposite. The point was more whether it would be quiet enough to do the job (which involves sitting in close proximity to a rather noisy aircraft carrier).
I don't know what this means.

I was just offering an opinion that if the navy was in the market for a 2nd class ASW escort, I think it would be easier to start with a t26 and dumb it down rather than start with a T31 and make it smarter.

It's easier to make a fast car go slow that it is to make a slow car go fast.

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Latest from HMS Glasgow.....







Wonder if the bird is also called Bob?

tomuk
Senior Member
Posts: 1409
Joined: 20 Dec 2017, 20:24
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by tomuk »

She does look quite a chunky monkey. Not the deceivingly sleek lines of the T45.

jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1110
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Funding allocated for next batch of T26 :=

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/funding ... -frigates/

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

jonas wrote:Funding allocated for next batch of T26 :=

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/funding ... -frigates/
I'm not sure why this drew a headline and article. Didn't we all know that a budget line existed for the batch 2? And that it would be subject to any and all review up until the point it's committed via contract?

jonas
Senior Member
Posts: 1110
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 19:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by jonas »

Ron5 wrote:
jonas wrote:Funding allocated for next batch of T26 :=

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/funding ... -frigates/
I'm not sure why this drew a headline and article. Didn't we all know that a budget line existed for the batch 2? And that it would be subject to any and all review up until the point it's committed via contract?
Perhaps not everyone is as well informed as yourself Ron. :shh:

User avatar
RichardIC
Senior Member
Posts: 1371
Joined: 10 May 2015, 16:59
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RichardIC »

Ron5 wrote:I'm not sure why this drew a headline and article.
Just about every written answer attracts a headline and article. It's UKDJ.

Having said that I totally understand their personal motivation on this one. UKDJ is produced by Glasgow-based supporters of the union who cop intense flak from Scot Nats, and this a mother of an emotive subject in that particular neck of the woods.

Ron5
Donator
Posts: 7249
Joined: 05 May 2015, 21:42
United States of America

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Ron5 »

Updates on the Type 26, 31 & 32 frigates. There's a few typos in the article so don't get carried away :D

https://www.navylookout.com/royal-navy- ... me-update/

Image

User avatar
Tempest414
Senior Member
Posts: 5552
Joined: 04 Jan 2018, 23:39
France

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Tempest414 »

If funding has been allocated it would be nice to know how much and when

donald_of_tokyo
Senior Member
Posts: 5545
Joined: 06 May 2015, 13:18
Japan

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Ron5 wrote:
jonas wrote:Funding allocated for next batch of T26 :=
https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/funding ... -frigates/
I'm not sure why this drew a headline and article. Didn't we all know that a budget line existed for the batch 2? And that it would be subject to any and all review up until the point it's committed via contract?
Always, confirmation is good. It at least means the program is not silently killed yet. :thumbup:

bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Another view of HMS Glasgow............




bobp
Senior Member
Posts: 2684
Joined: 06 May 2015, 07:52
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by bobp »

Newest Picture I could find here....


SD67
Senior Member
Posts: 1036
Joined: 23 Jul 2019, 09:49
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SD67 »

That picture sums up what’s wrong with the Clyde - half million pound waterfront apartments within five hundred meters of a shipyard. We had this in Australia it was called Williamstown, the aussies were sensible enough to close it down and build greenfield

User avatar
SKB
Senior Member
Posts: 7931
Joined: 30 Apr 2015, 18:35
England

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

And that was how Liverpool lost its UNESCO status...

NickC
Donator
Posts: 1432
Joined: 01 Sep 2017, 14:20
United Kingdom

Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

bobp wrote:Another view of HMS Glasgow............

Would note that this is not new, Iver Huitfeldt class design uses shock protected "islands" able to absorb impacts for mounting its sensitive electronic kit and presumably same used on the T31.

Post Reply