Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
164
52%
Kongsberg NSM
78
25%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
44
14%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
21
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 315

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xav
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by xav »

Babcock Completes Testing of Air Weapons Handling System for Type 26
Image
Babcock International, the Aerospace and Defence company, has successfully completed Factory Acceptance Testing (FAT) of the Air Weapons Handling System (AWHS) for the Type 26 Global Combat Ship, designed for BAE Systems.
https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/20 ... r-type-26/

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NickC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Canadian programme budget cost for fifteen T26

Parliamentary Budget Office report puts latest estimate at C$70B ~£42B , ~£2.8B per ship, no figure given for cost of tax included, if DND estimate holding of C$58/60B excluding taxes equate to ~£2.4B per ship, no breakdown of costs, state first ship to be delivered mid 2020's so may be before first RN T26?

"ship construction will begin later (increasing inflation costs), the ship will be larger than assumed in the previous report (increasing real construction costs), and we exclude the cost of spares beyond the initial two years // The Conservative government originally estimated the cost of the ships to be around $26 billion. The DND now states that its estimate is between $56 billion and $60 billion. // The PBO report warned that any delays in building the first ship will be costly. A delay of one year, for instance, could increase costs by almost $2.2 billion, it added.

The federal government hopes to begin building the ships starting in the early 2020s. // Pat Finn, the head of procurement at DND, said the PBO estimates largely align with what the department figures as the cost of the program. He noted that unlike the PBO, the department does not consider tax in its cost figures // The government projects the acquisition phase to begin in the early 2020s with deliveries to begin in the mid-2020s. The delivery of the 15th ship, slated for the late 2040s, will mark the end of that project."

From <https://ottawacitizen.com/news/national ... o-estimate>

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

Worth noting that the figures above are the total project cost at 2045 prices.

The report gives an estate of £1.1 billion in 2017 prices. It also estimates FREMM is 20% cheaper and a Burke is 1% more expensive.

https://pbo-dpb.gc.ca/web/default/files ... port_E.pdf
@LandSharkUK

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NickC
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

@shark bait, thanks for locating source document, interesting read and good information, will study when have time.

Lord Jim
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

If it looks like either or both Canada and Australia take delivery of their T-26s before the Royal Navy there needs to be a public enquiry into why out T-26 programme is so slow so that the reasons can be seen by all together with the stupidity and ideocracy.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

RN's T26 delivery is 2025. With not even a single steel cut, there is zero possibility RAN and RCN T26 can be delivered earlier. Technologically, it is impossible.

Only if the Clyde get severe fire damaging the whole building, or has big earth quake like 3.11 in Japan (of course UK do not have such earthquake), or other big disaster happen (such as Scotich independence?), RN T26 will be the first to be delivered.

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shark bait
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by shark bait »

I wouldn't be so sure. The Italians will have delivered a whole class of frigate in the time it take the Brits to finish a single T26.

It is definitely quicker to build quicker than currently planned.
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donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

It doesn't matter, I guess. It is all build "under" BAES control. Also, I do think it is slow partly because it needs more work-load. At least, FREMM is said to be simpler vessel than T26. Simpler means easier to build.

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Jensy
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Jensy »

shark bait wrote:I wouldn't be so sure. The Italians will have delivered a whole class of frigate in the time it take the Brits to finish a single T26.
They're not alone.

If (big 'if', I appreciate), the Type 31 goes to plan the Royal Navy will have:

- Issued an RFI to industry;
- Run an international completion;
- Cancelled an international competition;
- Restarted it;
- Completed an in-depth design process;
- Approved a final design;
- Built four of five frigates;
- Seen up to three of them enter active service;

In the gap between Steel being cut and the first Type 26 entering service.
shark bait wrote:
The report gives an estate of £1.1 billion in 2017 prices. It also estimates FREMM is 20% cheaper and a Burke is 1% more expensive.
Amazing how pricey a FREMM actually is, even after 15-20 have been built, to a less than cutting edge design. Goes a long way to explain the success of the T26 with Australia and Canada.

Jensy

Aethulwulf
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Aethulwulf »

Given that first T23 ASW is not due to go out of service until 2027, it is not altogether strange that build pace of the T26 is what it is.

Of course the first T23 GP has a OSD of 2023, and hence the hurry up on the T31 programme.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by NickC »

Some random thoughts and quotes from the Canadian report, The Parliamentary Budget Officer (PBO), The Cost of Canada’s Surface Combatants: 2019 Update, 20 June 2019

PBO "A key cost driver is the weight of the ship. Ship displacement represents the primary factor in the model’s cost estimating relationships. The 2017 PBO report estimates project costs based on a 5,400 ton lightship weight, which was an estimate based on available designs for the CSC project at the time. With the announced selection of the Type 26 design, we now know the lightship weight of the design to be 6,790 tons (6,900mt), a significant increase".

PBO "The Type 26’s design states a lightship weight (displacement) of 6,790 LT (6,900 MT), an 81 percent increase over the CPF’s (Halifax class) lightship weight of 3,748 tons (~T 23) Therefore, the cost is multiplied by approximately 1.81" (The displacement reflects in the figures quoted for the Australian Hunter class as 8,000t FLD and 8,800t EOL).

It would appear that Canadians do not subscribe to 'steel is cheap and air is free' when the mission bay the one of the main drivers for the increased displacement will cost on a pro rata basis the same as any other ton.

The T26 without mission bay was 5,400t, so if one accepts Canadian concept that the approx ship cost based on tonnage the T26 mission bay cost premium an extra ~28% (6,900/5,400) .

October 2014 FALLON explained to the House of Commons Defence Committee the choice for an Adaptable Mission Bay concept and large flight deck as firstly driven by amphib capability.

"The Mission Bay and adjacent hangar and flight deck provide a significantly larger and more adaptable space than is currently available in the T23 Frigate. The T26 GCS Flexible Mission Bay can accommodate four 12-metre boats for boarding operations for the insertion of Royal Marines or other forces. Alternatively, it can host a range of manned and unmanned surface, subsurface and aerial vehicles. Such is the flexibility and capacity of the space that it could even hold ten 20-foot containers or mission modules containing anything from disaster relief stores to specialist medical or Command and Control facilities.

The spacious hangar can easily accommodate a single Merlin Helicopter or two Wildcat; in extremis, for short surge operations, the Mission Bay could even accommodate a second Merlin. The large flight deck is sized to accept a CH47 Chinook (ramp down) for troop embarkation and disembarkation and can operate a range of smaller helicopters and unmanned aviation vehicles (UAVs) and in concert with the Mission Silo this makes the T26 GCS a truly mission-tuneable platform."

PBO "A second significant factor in the increase in the PBO cost estimate is attributable to the change in the CSC project timeline assumptions. We now assume that the project’s construction phase will begin a full three years later than first assumed in the 2017 PBO study; this affects the start and duration of the project’s development phase while pushing back the start of the project’s construction phase". Think we all agree the snails pace T26 build pushing up costs substantially.

PS the Canadians quote a Arleigh Burke destroyer as only costing an additional 1.1%, state using the USN figures, but the Aegis CMS for Burke is funded by the Missile Defense Agency and not included in USN figures, so as with all reports treat figures with caution.

dmereifield
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by dmereifield »

Blimey, up to 4 x 12 metre boats? What 12 metre boats does the RN have (or likely to get)?

Meriv9
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Meriv9 »

shark bait wrote: Amazing how pricey a FREMM actually is, even after 15-20 have been built, to a less than cutting edge design. Goes a long way to explain the success of the T26 with Australia and Canada.
Jensy
the 20% was calculated against French FREMM a 10% lighter & less capable than the italian version. Double 76mm, Double Hangar, More torpedoes, mobility etc.. etc...

From wiki about the french version
The 11 ships would cost €670 million (~US$760m) each in FY2014, or €860m (~US$980m) including development costs.[1]
Meanwhile the number went down from 11 to 8 ships so i dont know the actual cost the Canadian took as reference.

About the Italian version from a fast search
The last two FREMM cost 764mln (both)= 382
The development cost in 2005 was 450mln for 10 units.
A first batch of maintenance and running should be around 300mln.
So we are around 700-750€mln (850$) per unit.

But Im no expert surely Gabriele has better and more precise numbers than me.

Take in consideration the offer from the Italian-French consortium to build the CSC for 50% of the budget.

luan_ngo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by luan_ngo »

The fremm fixed price offer didn't include the cost of training, ammunition, supplies that Canada normally includes in its cost estimate so it's an apple vs oranges comparison. The Canadian government cautioned against the comparison because of all the things excluded.

I'm a bit troubled by the pbo report, which primarily focused on the differential displacement between the type 26 and Halifax class. Seems too simplistic.

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Lord Jim
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Lord Jim »

Hopefully we will not have another "Merlin" fiasco!

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by seaspear »

dmereifield wrote:Blimey, up to 4 x 12 metre boats? What 12 metre boats does the RN have (or likely to get)?
It may not be the 12 metre boats but remote controlled surfaced mine hunting craft ,underwater craft for various missions ,even unmaned aircraft ,and anything else they think of in the various defence centres that can be added to the ship for its mission ,should be interesting.

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Atlas UK ARCIMS drones are 11.5 m long. I understand some of the work boats, manned, ordered from Atlas is also 11.5 m long.

[EDIT] https://www.atlas-elektronik.com/soluti ... craft.html

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Atlas UK ARCIMS drones are 11.5 m long. I understand some of the work boats, manned, ordered from Atlas is also 11.5 m long.
https://www.savetheroyalnavy.org/in-foc ... oyal-navy/
They are
x13 11m workboats
x3 13.8m boats (for PoW)
x18 15m workboats
and x1 18m Magpie.

Poiuytrewq
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Poiuytrewq »

Meanwhile progress on HMS Glasgow continues, slowly.
D_QcwyBUYAABfol.jpeg

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Repulse »

New Zealand is potentially interested in two to three T26s after 2030 according to BAE speculation reported in the FT. I think they’ll struggle budget wise, but (and I know people disagree) this is where a UK subsidised order of ships built in the UK could work, especially if one of the three is for the RN forward based in NZ/Oz integrated into their navies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 1c6ab5efd1
”We have no eternal allies, and we have no perpetual enemies. Our interests are eternal and perpetual, and those interests it is our duty to follow." - Lord Palmerston

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SKB
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by SKB »

I-see-diagram.... :shock: :clap:

donald_of_tokyo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by donald_of_tokyo »

Repulse wrote:New Zealand is potentially interested in two to three T26s after 2030 according to BAE speculation reported in the FT. I think they’ll struggle budget wise, but (and I know people disagree) this is where a UK subsidised order of ships built in the UK could work, especially if one of the three is for the RN forward based in NZ/Oz integrated into their navies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 1c6ab5efd1
According to NZ defense capability plan 2019, RNZN ANZAC replacement will see investment decisions after 2030, to replace them around mid-2030s.

T26 hull-1 will hit the water 2 years from now (say, 2021), fitted out, tested, certified and then delivered to RN on 2025 (and then commission on 2027). The last hull is expected to commission on 2035.

If ever RNZN could adopt T26, it matches well.

RAN’s T26 is basically planned to be delivered on 2026 (hull-1), with the last hull on 2042 (in 2018 BAE Australia brochure, not Australian government official doc.)

So, in any case, T26 production will be still running (may be also for Canadian version).

Likely or not, I have no idea. Decision will be taken on 2030, a decade from now.


#sorry it is a cross-post of my own, from UKDJ

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by RetroSicotte »

Would be excellent if so. Truly the Commonwealth frigate, if it won't be the Anglo Frigate due to the US and their choice :D

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SKB
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

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Pseudo
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Post by Pseudo »

Repulse wrote:New Zealand is potentially interested in two to three T26s after 2030 according to BAE speculation reported in the FT. I think they’ll struggle budget wise, but (and I know people disagree) this is where a UK subsidised order of ships built in the UK could work, especially if one of the three is for the RN forward based in NZ/Oz integrated into their navies.

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.ft.c ... 1c6ab5efd1
I'd have thought that FTI, PPA or even Type 31e would have been more suited to their requirements and budget.

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