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Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.

Which Anti-Ship Missile Should be Selected for the Type 26?

Lockheed Martin LRASM
140
52%
Kongsberg NSM
61
23%
Boeing Harpoon Next Gen
42
16%
MBDA Exocet Blk III
19
7%
None (stick to guided ammo and FASGW from Helicopters)
8
3%
 
Total votes: 270

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 31 May 2019, 09:09

Jdam wrote:I've heard a few times that the design for the US frigate program must be in production, what does this mean with HMS Glasgow coming together in Glasgow, do it mean more than one built?

Must be in service to get money from the US for the design phase.

The final draft phase may allow anything, it's just you'd have to pay for it out your own pocket to make the design.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 13 Jun 2019, 15:51

How T26 is being built and assembled at BAE Clyde/Scotstoun:

1. Bow section is rolled out.
Image

2. Stern section rolled out and joined to bow section.
Image

3. Superstructure lifted and joined to top of bow section, making ship structurally complete.
Image

4. T26 is rolled onto a barge, which is then lowered into the Clyde.
Image

5. T26 is floated and drydocked for final fitting out stage.
Image

6. Ta-daa!
Image

(Photos sourced from Navy Lookout)

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Halidon » 13 Jun 2019, 17:32

Is the superstructure built in the same shed, another, or outside?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby seaspear » 14 Jun 2019, 03:33

It might not come to if the type 26 is in play for the contract but how it influences the eventual outcome of choice , I cant with any authority state the U.S.N is not on par in surface ship asw operations with other NATO allies ,but if the type 26 is a demonstrable step forward over existing designs ,then the U.S.N. may place further emphasis in the tender designs in their asw capabilities to meet present and future operational needs .

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 14 Jun 2019, 18:35

The USN's going to start running into to issues with the FFG(X) programme if things keep going the way they are. The idea was for a proven design to be adapted to USN requirements, but as things move forward the designs are becoming less and less proven or established as the USN's requirements keep expanding. Could be good news for the T-26, especially if it actually already meets the actually needs of the USN.

Has anyone any info on how far the first hull is progressing though or is it moving so slowly it appears to be standing still?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jdam » 14 Jun 2019, 20:15

I think any talk about the USN and the type 26 is going to come to a disappointing end, as much as I would love to see the USN pick the Type 26, I don't just see Congress approving it.

HMS Glasgow is under construction in Govan but looking at the latest picks of the hull thanks to the launch HMS Spey it isn't moving very quickly. Hopefully a lot of the sections are under construction and maybe with the OPV launch work will pick up on HMS Glasgow.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby SKB » 17 Jun 2019, 17:33

Hmm...
Image
Image
Image
Image
Image

So, HMS Glasgow's stern is in the right-hand hall, with the bow in the left-hand one.
Perhaps with bridge/superstructure in the middle one now that HMS Spey has gone?

Btw, T26 could've been built in one piece in Portsmouth's 200m long ship hall, compared to three pieces in these 78m long halls in Glasgow.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby NickC » 21 Jun 2019, 19:02

USN have issued final RFP for the FFG(X)

"The Naval Sea Systems Command (NAVSEA) intends to issue a solicitation under full and open competition in the upcoming weeks for the detail design and construction (DD&C) of guided missile frigates under the FFG(X) program. The solicitation will provide for DD&C of up to 10 FFG(X) ships, post-delivery availability support, engineering and class services, crew familiarization, training equipment, and provisioned item orders.// The Navy expects to build a total of 20 FFG(X) ships as per the fiscal year 2019 Report to Congress on the Annual Long-Range Plan for Construction of Naval Vessels."

"The RFP provides for a full and open competition and will result in a contract awarded to one company // "Offerors who respond to the DD&C solicitation must propose an FFG(X) design based on a parent ship design that has been through production and demonstrated in full scale at sea." so T26 ruled out as non-compliant, earlier statements could be read that this requirement might not apply to the production contract.

https://www.navsea.navy.mil/Media/News/ ... -contract/

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby inch » 21 Jun 2019, 21:28

Dam shame t26 would have been a great ship for our American cousins ,well that's it then I quess

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby whitelancer » 21 Jun 2019, 22:19

While I understand why the USN has decided to go the way they have in order to mitigate the risks in the program, notable cost overruns, time overruns and failure to meet specifications. Given the changes required of all the designs we've seen so far, some off them major ones, I wonder if they are going to end up with a 2nd best solution without actually diminishing the risk at all. Time will tell.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby seaspear » 22 Jun 2019, 01:50

This article suggests that the U.S.N philosophy of needs is different to the R.N
https://news.usni.org/2019/06/20/navy-i ... on-frigate
accoustic stealth is not mentioned ,Im not suggesting its not capable of course that the U.S.N is under congressional pressure to build a ship from entirely domestic parts will likely push up costs .

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 22 Jun 2019, 02:20

It seems the USN basically want a small AB for its FFG(X), being more of a multi role platform than one tailored to ASW as initially described. IS this another case of too many cooks and the resultant mission creep?

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby jonas » 22 Jun 2019, 08:47

IMHO the US has made a big mistake in dismissing a clean sheet vessel. Seems to me that the FFG(X) is turning into an amalgam of many things. You would have thought that after LCS they might have learned something, it appears not.

I think they may well rue the day that T26 was overlooked.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby jonas » 25 Jun 2019, 13:32

BAE will not be putting in any bid for the FFG(X) programme :-

BAE Systems Quashes Hopes of Type 26 Entry in FFG(X) Contest
(Source: USNI News; issued June 21, 2019)
By Jon Rosamond
LONDON --- BAE Systems has told USNI News that it would be “delighted” to enter its Type 26 Global Combat Ship in the FFG(X) future frigate competition – if the Navy scraps the requirement for a proven hull design.

The U.K. shipbuilder has taken a close interest in the small surface combatant program, prompting speculation that the United States might join Britain, Australia and Canada in acquiring versions of the Type 26 platform.

On Thursday, however, as the Navy released a final FFG(X) request for proposals, the company confirmed that it will not be submitting blueprints for the 492-foot, 8,000 -ton Type 26 unless the contest is opened up to designs that have not yet been proven at sea. Such a U-turn is not expected.

“Following a detailed assessment of the US Navy’s requirements for its FFG(X) frigate, program we chose not to participate and will continue to focus on delivering on our commitments to the U.K., Australian and Canadian navies,” a BAE Systems spokesperson said.

“We would be delighted to re-engage with the U.S. Navy should its requirements change.”

The Royal Navy is slated to receive eight City-class Type 26s optimized for anti-submarine warfare, with BAE Systems securing an order worth $4.7 billion (U.S. dollars) for the first three ships in July 2017.

Lead ship HMS Glasgow is now under construction in Scotland. Float-out is expected in late 2021, followed by fitting out, acceptance by the Royal Navy in 2025 and entry into operational service in 2027, according to information provided to Parliament.

Such a leisurely schedule – which has been dictated by funding constraints within the UK Ministry of Defence – means the ship has no chance of demonstrating its capabilities within the timeframe required by the U.S. Navy, which plans to select the FFG(X) detail design in Fiscal Year 2020. (end of excerpt)


https://news.usni.org/2019/06/21/bae-sy ... gx-contest

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Lord Jim » 25 Jun 2019, 13:58

Nearly ten years to built a Frigate, well we sure are showing the world how not to do things these days!

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 25 Jun 2019, 14:12

People talk of the US missing the boat here. They're not.

It's the UK who missed it. By the government delaying so much about just funding the damn thing. We could have had one in the water already.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Jun 2019, 15:03

RetroSicotte wrote:People talk of the US missing the boat here. They're not.

It's the UK who missed it. By the government delaying so much about just funding the damn thing. We could have had one in the water already.
Not sure. (see *1)

I personally think RN fleet size is over-sized compared to their budget. There are many "hollow" assets all around the UK military. For me, "19 escorts saga" is just doing bad than any good to RN. If "16 escort" is to be the aim, RN should have had ordered 10 T26, and current T26 schedule is "not bad". BAES should have been building frigate factory, and 10 hulls will be easily built by 2035.

Furthermore, early decision on "cutting frigates from 13 to 10" will issue needs for "large OPV" to fill the gap, and the 630M GBP budget for the 5 River B2 spent around 2016-2021 should have been used for, say, 3 Floreal-like OPV-H (even could be based on current Leander design, but with much less armaments and built to OPV standard).

For me, THIS is the "opportunity lost".

I think, at least for T26, UK lost nothing. RAN and RCN adoption was GREAT. Hoping more is just not practical.

*1: I understand you all are talking about "increase" in defense budget. But, steady decrease in defense budget was "world's trend" those days. (Also many other budgets saw cut). I am happy to blame them for not providing enough money, but I also do not expect much more. So, I still think "what could have been done with the same budgetary condition"?

[EDIT] In short, cause of many "inefficiency" is because
- hoping too much with not enough forecast budget (stupid idea of "efficiency saving" is the icon here)
- refuse to see the reality, betting on "hope", and then the (relatively foreseeable) reality came and just claim "why not more money?"

If RN was aware of the reality = more practical, there should have been many ways to "better handle" current situation. Of course, blaming the past is easy (and useless). So, what is important here is to learn lessons from here. I think RN must be more practical on budget (income) and cost (usage). For example, I think it is clear SSM for escorts, data-link for Wildcats, ExLS not mushroom, is much more important and practical than the 5 "frigate" who's average cost is 4 times cheaper than a T26 frigate.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 25 Jun 2019, 16:15

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I personally think RN fleet size is over-sized compared to their budget. There are many "hollow" assets all around the UK military. For me, "19 escorts saga" is just doing bad than any good to RN. If "16 escort" is to be the aim, RN should have had ordered 10 T26, and current T26 schedule is "not bad". BAES should have been building frigate factory, and 10 hulls will be easily built by 2035.

That's not what I said. I'm talking about when they started building the first one, not how many. Only takes one in the water to be proven.

*1: I understand you all are talking about "increase" in defense budget.

I'm not. No difference to the budget was needed. It was all the delays through indecision and political meddling. T26 delay was caused in no small part by the SNP creating uncertainty in the yards' purpose or future. Without that creating a 4 year period of unknowing, much could have been done, and the wasted money on the River B2s would not have been spent. T26 could have began build years ago, and been in the water much sooner to perhaps meet the US timeline.

It was nothing to do with budget, and everything to do with disinterested politicians not signing off on something. That lack of signing off saved no money at all. In fact it cost more money.

The delay in first hull in the water, thus missing the USN contract (which is most certainly a loss) was entirely avoidable, with no change in the budget, only a change in them being more decisive and in ceasing playing their own stupid games at the cost of the country's performance.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Jun 2019, 16:30

RetroSicotte wrote:...T26 delay was caused in no small part by the SNP creating uncertainty in the yards' purpose or future. Without that creating a 4 year period of unknowing, much could have been done, and the wasted money on the River B2s would not have been spent. T26 could have began build years ago, and been in the water much sooner to perhaps meet the US timeline...
No objection. But,
- I am not sure delay is solely because of SNP. Do you have any info?
- I rather think it was ALSO because of the "game" between MOD and BAE. I'm afraid MOD, in hope of reducing cost with not reducing requirements, was doing some chicken race. All speculation, I agree.

But, MOD decided the delay two times: first time for the 3 River B2s, and secondly for the 2 more. When the "2 more" are ordered, political situation was basically already settled down? So I think the T26 design was really not ready yet.

By the way, I do not think T26, if build earlier, shall win the FFX. It may win, but USN historically is not much interested in super quite hull. They have many other things to spend their money. But, yes, as yours are, this is also just my speculation...

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Jake1992 » 25 Jun 2019, 16:50

donald_of_tokyo wrote:[EDIT] In short, cause of many "inefficiency" is because
- hoping too much with not enough forecast budget (stupid idea of "efficiency saving" is the icon here)
- refuse to see the reality, betting on "hope", and then the (relatively foreseeable) reality came and just claim "why not more money?"

If RN was aware of the reality = more practical, there should have been many ways to "better handle" current situation. Of course, blaming the past is easy (and useless). So, what is important here is to learn lessons from here. I think RN must be more practical on budget (income) and cost (usage). For example, I think it is clear SSM for escorts, data-link for Wildcats, ExLS not mushroom, is much more important and practical than the 5 "frigate" who's average cost is 4 times cheaper than a T26 frigate.


I agree in part on here, yes the RN have been banking on hope too much along with the other services and yes there has been a great deal of wast not just with the RN but god look at the army over the last 15 years so so much waste, but a lot of that waste is also caused by political decisions look at the flipping with with the QEs cats and traps or the constant putting off of T26 as the most recent examples.

The politicians also need a reality check as well, they want to keep 19 frigates due to the fact that not only will it look bad domestically but also in the eyes of allies and foes. They have over the last few years been asking the force todo ever more ( Far East for the RN as the clear one ) with out giving the significant increase in funds needed for that, and the mystical efficiencies where a political idea. They need to see the reality that if they want to do more or even just stand still more funds are needed.

So in the end yes the forces need to spend what they get more wisely but even if they do unless more money is forth coming then more cut will still come and that is what politicians need to realise, they need to take a real hard look at if they want them cuts and the full in status along with political cost that comes with it or do they want to find the funds.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 25 Jun 2019, 16:55

donald_of_tokyo wrote:But, MOD decided the delay two times: first time for the 3 River B2s, and secondly for the 2 more. When the "2 more" are ordered, political situation was basically already settled down? So I think the T26 design was really not ready yet.

My apologies, Donald, but unless I'm greatly mistaken, you don't live in Scotland.

I live in Scotland. In fact I live in Glasgow, less than a mile from these shipyards that are building them, and at the heart of the SNPs most fanatical base. The political situation did anything but settle down up here. In fact it only got worse. There was a time prior to the first B2s that there was a real legitimate chance that the T26 production would need to go elsewhere. The MoD in no sensible way could commit to building them up here during that period. The survival of this program was on every single leaflet put out to every single household to try and sway people with the promise of big Scottish contracts. I must have gotten 6 different visits and leaflets mentioning the Type 26. The SNP's Independence chance was pipped to win many times, and you don't gamble your warships on a 50/50 outcome.

Only after that referendum in 2014 could they start saying "Okay, now we can look at frigates in Scotland." And by then it was too late. BAE now had the government over a barrel (unproven, but likely) as to the position on the contract, which in no way could have made it easier to draft, and the whole thing was years behind without an agreement made. The delay had left a massive gap in production, and massively overpriced River B2s ended up bought for no reason other than to cover said gap. Then as the "13 ships" promise became "8 + 3 OPVs" they had to order more B2s to make up the leaflet promised "13 ships". (Which had little effect, as most Scots all knew it should be 13 frigates).

After 2014, this only got worse with the the "Yes2" movement. As the EU Referendum neared, it went into absolute fever pitch. It continued to erode confidence over and over. Was Yes2 going to happen? Remember that Sturgeon tried to make it happen, until May turned it down. Again, uncertainty.

Had all that nonsense with the SNP and Westminster's lack of confidence (some justified, some not) not happened, there is a high chance that the contract would have been signed and build started years ago for much less money spent.

And the less said about how much time and money Brexit has obliterated from the government the better.

Totally political issue at its root.

By the way, I do not think T26, if build earlier, shall win the FFX. It may win, but USN historically is not much interested in super quite hull. They have many other things to spend their money. But, yes, as yours are, this is also just my speculation...

It would have had a pretty solid chance given the Australian and Canadian angle, and that's the sort of contract you take great measures to try and chase. That would have been a defining moment for British shipbuilding if so, even if only building some components.

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 25 Jun 2019, 17:08

RetroSicotte wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:But, MOD decided the delay two times: first time for the 3 River B2s, and secondly for the 2 more. When the "2 more" are ordered, political situation was basically already settled down? So I think the T26 design was really not ready yet.

My apologies, Donald, but unless I'm greatly mistaken, you don't live in Scotland.

I live in Scotland. In fact I live in Glasgow, less than a mile from these shipyards that are building them, and at the heart of the SNPs most fanatical base.
Thanks a lot. No I do not live in Scotland (only visited Edinburg once a few years ago (enjoyed it a lot)), and your "fresh" information is very helpful. Reading your comment, I understand your point.

But, "government over a barrel" and "SNP independence movement" is all because of UK citizen as a whole, and kind of things "nothing can be done by MOD". But still, MOD can be blamed for not having "plan-B" (large OPV, not River B2, to fill the 3-4 years' gap) when they were forced to order 5 River B2.

Looking at T31e program, I strongly think 10 T26 and 3 Floreal-like OPVs, in addition to the 4 River B1 OPVs, is more better balanced fleet than current 8 T26, 5 T31e and 5 River B2 fleet (fate of River B1 is far from clear, after 2020). And this plan required no improvement in political situation, and no increase in budget. (But it is too late, I agree).

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby Repulse » 25 Jun 2019, 21:04

We are way off the a (News Only) topic, but agree with a lot of what is stated above - we should be maximising our investment in the T26, by buying a couple more. I’d also argue that by using another English yard to help build modules the build speed could be increased and start to address the Scottish Independence risk. It’s also not out of the question that more defence cash could be stumped up, at which point a few more could be ordered.

As a side note, I’m ok with with the B2 Rivers on the basis that they will be a big part of our global presence in the short term - medium term they should replace the B1s, at which point we should be going for a B3 Sloop(H).
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby shark bait » 26 Jun 2019, 08:09

RetroSicotte wrote:The MoD in no sensible way could commit to building them up here during that period.

Why not?

I think it gave the MOD a convenient excuse to do things on the cheap.
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Re: Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

Postby RetroSicotte » 26 Jun 2019, 08:17

shark bait wrote:
RetroSicotte wrote:The MoD in no sensible way could commit to building them up here during that period.

Why not?

I think it gave the MOD a convenient excuse to do things on the cheap.

Complex warships can only be built in the UK.

Awarding a contract to the Clyde, only for the Clyde to suddenly become not in the UK would be either an enormous security risk, or incredibly expensive (and a legal nightmare) to cancel the contract mid-build and have to re-award the same contract elsewhere that would have delayed the entire project anyway.


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