Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[shark bait]

But that depends on the equipment fit if they end up fitted for but not with like the T45 then BAE should be ashamed.

It shouldnt be anything like that, unlike the T45 there will be nothing new on the T26, it should just be modern steel to transfer existing systems onto. Which should make it simple affordable and nothing like the T45 (fingers crossed)

[seaspear]

Hobart class with over runs 9.3 billion for three

[RetroSicotte]

28 knots is...distinctly disappointing. Congratulations, we've bought a frigate that can't even keep up with the carrier going at full tilt.

Once again, I simply fail to see why we move on 12 years and somehow implement worse engines. We already have propulsion methods in service and proven that would provide fleet commonality in existence on the Type 45 that could propel this thing above 30 knots with ease.

It is simply staggering that such decisions are being missed for god knows what reasons.

[marktigger]

is it the propulsive system or the hydro dynamics of the hull that are limiting the speed?

[jonas]

28 knots is...distinctly disappointing. Congratulations, we've bought a frigate that can't even keep up with the carrier going at full tilt.

Once again, I simply fail to see why we move on 12 years and somehow implement worse engines. We already have propulsion methods in service and proven that would provide fleet commonality in existence on the Type 45 that could propel this thing above 30 knots with ease.

It is simply staggering that such decisions are being missed for god knows what reasons.

The publicly stated speed of the QE is 25kts (or in excess of) , so if the same applies to the T26 i.e. 28 kts (or in excess of) how can it not keep up with the carrier. Notwithstanding the fact the MOD never really tell us what the vessels are actually capable of. We were also advised to take these statements with a pinch of salt,yes?

[Tiny Toy]

PAAMS being a member of a radar family, even though usually touted as a totally British and go-it-alone solution

By who? Not the French, they're perfectly happy to say it's a shared joint solution.

[shark bait]

28 knots is...distinctly disappointing. Congratulations, we've bought a frigate that can't even keep up with the carrier going at full tilt.

Once again, I simply fail to see why we move on 12 years and somehow implement worse engines. We already have propulsion methods in service and proven that would provide fleet commonality in existence on the Type 45 that could propel this thing above 30 knots with ease.

It is simply staggering that such decisions are being missed for god knows what reasons.

The top speed of the T23 is 28 knot's but is well know for going faster, I imagine the T26 will be a similar story.

The propulsion method is a bit shortsighted, full electric would have been better, the only thing I can think of is it's a cost cutting measure.

Asking for commonality with the T45 is dangerous, I don't believe there is much love for that system. I think they will be very happy to leave it at 6 examples and move on.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

28 knots is...distinctly disappointing. Congratulations, we've bought a frigate that can't even keep up with the carrier going at full tilt.

Once again, I simply fail to see why we move on 12 years and somehow implement worse engines. We already have propulsion methods in service and proven that would provide fleet commonality in existence on the Type 45 that could propel this thing above 30 knots with ease.

It is simply staggering that such decisions are being missed for god knows what reasons.

The publicly stated speed of the QE is 25kts (or in excess of) , so if the same applies to the T26 i.e. 28 kts (or in excess of) how can it not keep up with the carrier. Notwithstanding the fact the MOD never really tell us what the vessels are actually capable of. We were also advised to take these statements with a pinch of salt,yes?

Normally yes, but what i believe RS is getting at is that Xav seems to suggest that he has a definitive inside track on this one. Whilst he may end up being mistaken and or has been fed a particular figure that has been sanctioned for public release - one that may indeed still not represent the full story - in light of not having anything else to go on, Xav's word carries that greatest amount of credibility we have yet had on the matter.

[Lugzy]

I totally agree that the stated top speed could be very different from what the type 26 might actually be able to achieve , it's early days so I wouldn't worry at this point.

tbh it seems common practice to under sell capabilities ( personally I prefer under selling than over selling ) as pointed out by shark bait above regarding the type 23 , only the chosen few will have the solid facts and those facts will be proved or disapproved once a type 26 is built and put through trails , not before in my opinion

I've read a lot of posts here and on other sites regarding the type 26 , from a throw away comment based on expected costs which is not-confirmed , causing ppl to explode their calculators doing the maths putting 2+2 together and getting 7 , with out knowing if that price quoted ( £11.6b )is correct , and if it is correct what the break down of costs are and what's included and what isn't , all this is unknown as of today . So until more info is released all this is speculation ,

the question of numbers which will be built as been contested over and over again on forums , its stated 13 type 26s will be built replacing the type 23s 1 for 1 , and again upto now we Havant had any solid confirmed reports of the RN getting any less than the 13 planned , until this years SDSR is released and we have a possible better insight into actual costs/numbers etc , this again is only speculation .

Now I'm not saying any of the above couldn't happen or that costs couldn't be that high for the program , and if after more info is released and there's billions of pounds which can't really be accounted for bumping up the costs I'll be angry too , but until then I'm staying more positive , lol

[desertswo]

Most of you have read what I've written in the past on the topic of speed, but I guess it bears repeating; 28 knots is more than likely her STRATEGIC top end. I feel very confident that she can sprint at more than 30 kts if the TACTICAL situation requires. Were I to design such a ship, CODLOG would be at the top of my list for engineering plant of choice.

Contrary to popular belief, the engineering plant is not the long pole in the tent vis-a-vis speed, strategic or otherwise. Rather, it is hull design that is the limiting factor. LCSs and their 40+ knot speed aside, you will note that most NATO country CRU-DES type warships that have come down the builder's ways since the 1950s have had a top end between 27-32 knots. My two frigates (Brooke- and Knox-class had published top ends of 27 and 28 knots respectively . . . trust me, 31 knots was not of unheard of). That's not by accident and not merely to save money either. It's by far more to do with providing a large, stable, aviation/combat systems platform. The large, bow mounted, rubber windowed AN/SQS-26/53 sonars, ASW helo ops, and MK-45 5"/54-62 gun were among the primary reasons why the USN in particular went down that road.

Watch the MK-45 5"/54 caliber gun operate below. That gun tube remains locked the target, while ship rolls underneath it. It would hit that target with every round. Hull designs that are geared to moving fast tend to not support that sort of stability. There are always trade offs in hull design; and stability for speed is one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SusumfLtYZM.

[shark bait]

Were I to design such a ship, CODLOG would be at the top of my list for engineering plant of choice.

Why CODLOG? The engineer in me much prefers full electric propulsion.

[ArmChairCivvy]

PAAMS being a member of a radar family, even though usually touted as a totally British and go-it-alone solution

By who? Not the French, they're perfectly happy to say it's a shared joint solution.

The beef of the post was to counter the claim that European radar technology would exclude using American missiles... of course it was risky not to lift the punch line from the linked text:

"In 2009, a joint U.S.-Netherlands study concluded SM-3 could be integrated with the Signaal Multibeam Acquisition Radar for Tracking-L (SMART-L) and Advanced Phased Array Radar (APAR) sensor suites, providing non-AEGIS ships a viable missile defense capability. 20 such radars (or their derivatives) are already deployed with frigates and destroyers of six NATO navies, including four DutchDe Zeven Provinciën class frigates, three German Sacsen frigates and three Danish Navy Iver Huitfeldt class frigates.

Six British Type 45 destroyers [...] are also employing similar radar technology from Thales"

I just try to avoid flame wars by not naming those who talk rubbish.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Most of you have read what I've written in the past on the topic of speed, but I guess it bears repeating; 28 knots is more than likely her STRATEGIC top end. I feel very confident that she can sprint at more than 30 kts if the TACTICAL situation requires. Were I to design such a ship, CODLOG would be at the top of my list for engineering plant of choice.

Contrary to popular belief, the engineering plant is not the long pole in the tent vis-a-vis speed, strategic or otherwise. Rather, it is hull design that is the limiting factor. LCSs and their 40+ knot speed aside, you will note that most NATO country CRU-DES type warships that have come down the builder's ways since the 1950s have had a top end between 27-32 knots. My two frigates (Brooke- and Knox-class had published top ends of 27 and 28 knots respectively . . . trust me, 31 knots was not of unheard of). That's not by accident and not merely to save money either. It's by far more to do with providing a large, stable, aviation/combat systems platform. The large, bow mounted, rubber windowed AN/SQS-26/53 sonars, ASW helo ops, and MK-45 5"/54-62 gun were among the primary reasons why the USN in particular went down that road.

Watch the MK-45 5"/54 caliber gun operate below. That gun tube remains locked the target, while ship rolls underneath it. It would hit that target with every round. Hull designs that are geared to moving fast tend to not support that sort of stability. There are always trade offs in hull design; and stability for speed is one of them.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SusumfLtYZM.

Nice post, brief but very descriptive.

I had also heard it mentioned that, theoretically, the T26’s propulsion arrangement stands to allow it to achieve higher speeds than the T23 whilst conducting ASW searches without compromising noise levels. I guess it reinforces that the concept of speed and its value is all very contextual.

TD has a couple of quick snippets on it: http://www.thinkdefence.co.uk/2012/08/t ... at-ship-2/

[desertswo]

Were I to design such a ship, CODLOG would be at the top of my list for engineering plant of choice.

Why CODLOG? The engineer in me much prefers full electric propulsion.

Rather than answer directly, let me give you something to consider; in an all-electric ship, what happens if you lose the minimum number of diesel generators required to both power the combat systems AND propel the ship through the water? Given that situation, what capability are you going to kick off the island?

[shark bait]

Rather than answer directly, let me give you something to consider; in an all-electric ship, what happens if you lose the minimum number of diesel generators required to both power the combat systems AND propel the ship through the water? Given that situation, what capability are you going to kick off the island?

If I lost the diesel's I would use the gas turbine to power both the systems and propeller.
Surely in a CODLOG you can only power the propeller if you loose your diesel's?

[jonas]

28 knots is...distinctly disappointing. Congratulations, we've bought a frigate that can't even keep up with the carrier going at full tilt.

Once again, I simply fail to see why we move on 12 years and somehow implement worse engines. We already have propulsion methods in service and proven that would provide fleet commonality in existence on the Type 45 that could propel this thing above 30 knots with ease.

It is simply staggering that such decisions are being missed for god knows what reasons.

The publicly stated speed of the QE is 25kts (or in excess of) , so if the same applies to the T26 i.e. 28 kts (or in excess of) how can it not keep up with the carrier. Notwithstanding the fact the MOD never really tell us what the vessels are actually capable of. We were also advised to take these statements with a pinch of salt,yes?

Normally yes, but what i believe RS is getting at is that Xav seems to suggest that he has a definitive inside track on this one. Whilst he may end up being mistaken and or has been fed a particular figure that has been sanctioned for public release - one that may indeed still not represent the full story - in light of not having anything else to go on, Xav's word carries that greatest amount of credibility we have yet had on the matter.

If you read my post you would see that I was quoting xav, when he said to take it with a pinch of salt, his words not mine. He also states that this was given to him at DSEI so we can take it that it was from someone on the stand.

In the same post he says he is trying to get to talk with the programme manager, to see if he can get any definative answers to a number of questions he has. So please don't make it sound as if I am discrediting his posts.

On the contrary, I replied that I am looking forward to any info he can glean from BAE, at the moment he seems to be finding it hard work, so we can but live in hope.

[seaspear]

Is there any information on how much of the recent changes to the T26 have been due to the capabilities brought on by operating with the F35,

[desertswo]

Rather than answer directly, let me give you something to consider; in an all-electric ship, what happens if you lose the minimum number of diesel generators required to both power the combat systems AND propel the ship through the water? Given that situation, what capability are you going to kick off the island?

If I lost the diesel's I would use the gas turbine to power both the systems and propeller.
Surely in a CODLOG you can only power the propeller if you loose your diesel's?

I should have phrased that better. What I meant was minimum number of generators regardless of prime mover is available to either fight the ship or get the hell out of Dodge. With CODLOG you have the option of opening main bus breakers to shut down the drive motors, while allowing the gas turbine alone to drive the screw. Meanwhile what electrical power you do have can be sent to "red" (vital) loads only, while you strip "yellow" and "white" loads. It's what we used to call in the steam world, "steaming in the dark." We could maneuver and fight the ship. You just couldn't play pinochle in the wardroom.

[shark bait]

I should have phrased that better. What I meant was minimum number of generators regardless of prime mover is available to either fight the ship or get the hell out of Dodge. With CODLOG you have the option of opening main bus breakers to shut down the drive motors, while allowing the gas turbine alone to drive the screw. Meanwhile what electrical power you do have can be sent to "red" (vital) loads only, while you strip "yellow" and "white" loads. It's what we used to call in the steam world, "steaming in the dark." We could maneuver and fight the ship. You just couldn't play pinochle in the wardroom.

Im still not convinced CODLOG is better than fully integrated electric. In such the situation you described, the crew of an IEP ship would have the flexibility to divert some of the turbines power to keep the combat systems going. Surely it adds another level of redundancy, you don't have that flexibility with CODLOG?

Defiantly had to Google what pinochle is. Apparently its a north american thing, ill have to find one of them to teach me!

[desertswo]

Defiantly had to Google what pinochle is. Apparently its a north american thing, ill have to find one of them to teach me!

I'm sort of dating myself. Pinochle was really more my father's generation, but there were still some old timers in the CPO mess who played it when I first went to sea. Another game from back in the day that we did play was "Acey-Duecey"; a form of freewheeling backgammon. Very cut throat. It sort of fits the military person's aggressive nature.

As regards CODLOG; I suppose we must agree to disagree. I like what seems to my simple sailor's mind, a better form of redundancy, if for no other reason than not all the eggs are in one IEP basket.

[seaspear]

acey duecy best with cards and fistfuls of money

[shark bait]

As regards CODLOG; I suppose we must agree to disagree. I like what seems to my simple sailor's mind, a better form of redundancy, if for no other reason than not all the eggs are in one IEP basket.

I suppose so, I'm a systems engineer so I guess integrated electric comes natural to me, just interested in the sailors point of view.

My guess is now days all your eggs are already in one basket. The whole system is coupled and dependant on others parts, but gains robustness through its modular architecture. You can knock out a few bits before it all collapses.

I can see how a decoupled system would be good if your power generation system went down you could still use the turbine to run away, you couldn't do that with IEP. However I dont think the GT of a modern CODLOG system would run either because they need power to run. In my experience it would be impossible to run without a PLC control system, and safety standards dictate valves must be slam shut so require power to keep the system going. That's coming from my industrial knowledge, I don't know if naval systems are different.

The propulsion method is my only criticism of the T26 design. To me it seems shot sighted to deny it the flexibility an IEP system gives.

[desertswo]

As regards CODLOG; I suppose we must agree to disagree. I like what seems to my simple sailor's mind, a better form of redundancy, if for no other reason than not all the eggs are in one IEP basket.

I suppose so, I'm a systems engineer so I guess integrated electric comes natural to me, just interested in the sailors point of view.

My guess is now days all your eggs are already in one basket. I can see how a decoupled system would be good if your power generation system went down you could still use the turbine to run away. However these days I don't think you could run a turbine without sufficient power generation to start with. In my experience it would be impossible to run without a PLC control system, and safety standards dictate valves must be slam shut so require power to keep the system going. That's coming from my industrial knowledge, I don't know if naval systems are different.

The propulsion method is my only criticism of the T26 design. To me it seems shot sighted to deny it the flexibility an IEP system gives.

Sure they have a PLC system. USN gas turbine ships even have an UPS that's good for several hours. Relative to the sort of power travelling through a wave guide for an air search radar, the power needed to run a PLC is a mere drop in the bucket.

[shark bait]

Sure they have a PLC system. USN gas turbine ships even have an UPS that's good for several hours. Relative to the sort of power travelling through a wave guide for an air search radar, the power needed to run a PLC is a mere drop in the bucket.

Yeah I don't think I explained my self well there. My worry was if your diesels go down it would take the GT down with it. At least in a IEP the GT and generate power and be self sustaining, as well as the other systems. However now knowing there is a decent UPS relieves me somewhat.

[ArmChairCivvy]

My guess is now days all your eggs are already in one basket. The whole system is coupled and dependant on others parts, but gains robustness through its modular architecture.

taking the point beyond propulsion (and keeping the radar turning), I was surprised to hear that all processing on a T26 is shared from one blade server park
- now I understand why BAE wants to put some ceramic armour on the ship (and MoD is resisting, I hear!)
- and no point armouring up just the CMS, if what it runs on has no protection (would probs be deeper in the guts of the ship, though, with some protection afforded that way)