Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Gabriele]

Program cost. Not ship cost. Program.

That's why i say we need to learn if it includes support costs and other elements other than design and procurement. And i hope to all gods that it does. Because otherwise it is ridiculously overpriced.

[seaspear]

Hi Gabriele are you able to provide as a comparison the program cost for the Fremm class vessels and the unit cost as a comparison ?

[ArmChairCivvy]

Same story as with T26 (different numbers though), In 2006 the Parliament was told that the unit cost will be e382m; three years later
JEAN-DOMINIQUE MERCHET 12 OCTOBRE 2009 (MISE À JOUR : 28 JANVIER 2015)
Les 11 frégates multimissions (FREMM) de la classe Aquitaine coûteront 7 milliards d’euros, a indiqué vendredi le ministre de la Défense Hervé Morin. Soit 636 millions d’euros l’unité. Or, lorsque le programme a été lancé, l’idée était d’en acquérir 17 pour un coût total de seulement 6,5 milliards

[marktigger]

well looks like the Indians are going Russian

http://in.rbth.com/news/2015/09/23/indi ... tes_427305

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

^ No problem from where i am standing. Would hate to think how they would have had us over a barrel for the collective industrial know-how that went in to producing the T26 if we ever tried to export it to them. It is a fool who trades hardware to India these days. The expertise that goes in to our naval archicture is worth more than any contract they could reasonably provide us with.

[shark bait]

I see what your saying, they do seem to want all the technology and industry without having to develop the technology or industry themselves.

[Pseudo]

I see what your saying, they do seem to want all the technology and industry without having to develop the technology or industry themselves.

I know. How dare they? They even have the gall to monetarily compensate for the transfer. Why can't they be more like China and just get some computer bods to break in to our computers and take the technology? It'd save so much hassle.

[cockneyjock1974]

What's even more surprising is that India is still doing business with them, after having their trousers taken down and royally spanked over the carrier debacle.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

I see what your saying, they do seem to want all the technology and industry without having to develop the technology or industry themselves.

I know. How dare they? They even have the gall to monetarily compensate for the transfer. Why can't they be more like China and just get some computer bods to break in to our computers and take the technology? It'd save so much hassle.

Yeah but they don't do they? They pay for the ship (or a plane or a tank or a missile etc etc) and a licence but the knowledge, industrial expertise and innovation that went in to designing then building the product - knowledge that we hand over with the licences that they demand - are worth far more than any eventual contract that is ever signed. We are talking about something like the T26 being the culmination of decades, if not even centuries, of high tech industrial investment and innovation and you would argue that India paying 25-30% more than normal market price for the licence to said product somehow makes their ToT demands good value for money???

Knowledge is priceless and they want to build up their own domestic industrial base on the cheap by cutting corners and simply 'acquiring knowledge' - be it Western or Russian etc. I.e. at the cost/expense of foreign innovation. Not only do i consider it both shoddy and underhand its unlikely to do them any good in the long run (as we have seen thus far when they try to fly solo on defence tenders); and yet all the while it continues these types of contracts serve to endlessly shaft our companies, engineers and designers all the same...Should they ever miraculously get their act together and the ToT train pays off for them, then we are at risk of having fuelled a foreign undercut to our own industry to boot.

All that is without even beginning to consider all the various clauses and conditions the Indian defence ministry likes to hammer in to their contracts - like their efforts to shaft Dassault by attempting to force it to provide production and cost guarantees in overseeing the HAL assembly lines...

In short, Indian procurement tenders are parasitic and should be, for the most part, avoided as such.

[Pseudo]

I see what your saying, they do seem to want all the technology and industry without having to develop the technology or industry themselves.

I know. How dare they? They even have the gall to monetarily compensate for the transfer. Why can't they be more like China and just get some computer bods to break in to our computers and take the technology? It'd save so much hassle.

Yeah but they don't do they? They pay for the ship (or a plane or a tank or a missile etc etc) and a licence but the knowledge, industrial expertise and innovation that went in to designing then building the product - knowledge that we hand over with the licences that they demand - are worth far more than any eventual contract that is ever signed. We are talking about something like the T26 being the culmination of decades, if not even centuries, of high tech industrial investment and innovation and you would argue that India paying 25-30% more than normal market price for the licence to said product somehow makes their ToT demands good value for money???

I'm not suggesting that at all. The emoticon at the end of my post is pretty relevant to the tone of the post.

Though, I would say that it's fine for India to attempt to make these sort of procurements, but I'd agree that it would be a fool who goes for them. I'd imagine that eventually if no western suppliers go for such contracts India will either get the message and be less demanding in their requirements or they'll become completely reliant on their relationship with Russia.

[shark bait]

Yeah that's what happened with dassault, they where asking for too much. Although I would add them becoming more embedded with Russia is an equally bad situation.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

I'm not suggesting that at all. The emoticon at the end of my post is pretty relevant to the tone of the post.

Though, I would say that it's fine for India to attempt to make these sort of procurements, but I'd agree that it would be a fool who goes for them. I'd imagine that eventually if no western suppliers go for such contracts India will either get the message and be less demanding in their requirements or they'll become completely reliant on their relationship with Russia.

Right you are - misread the context of the emoticon!

[malcrf]

Gabriele

That's why i say we need to learn if it includes support costs and other elements other than design and procurement. And i hope to all gods that it does. Because otherwise it is ridiculously overpriced.

If it doesn't then we should bloody well scrap the T26 and get H&W, Swan or whoever to build us 18 Iver Huitfeldts!!!

They'd do a decent job for is, and maybe we could order some SSKs as well...............

[Gabriele]

Hi Gabriele are you able to provide as a comparison the program cost for the Fremm class vessels and the unit cost as a comparison ?

The italian FREMM programme for 10 ships costs 5680 million euro according to parliament documents.

The french ones are more expensive. Last time, the estimate was 9,5 billion euro for 11 ships.

Maybe the italian concept of "program costs" is less inclusive of other voices of expenditure other than development and procurement cost, no way to check for sure what is included and what not. But the differences are quite extraordinary.

And the FREMM does not reuse anything from the earlier ships they replace, unlike what is supposed to happen with T23 and T26.

Let's not even mention the danes costs, otherwise the comparison becomes flat out insane.

[RetroSicotte]

I am genuinely at a loss as to how the French FREMM comes out cheaper than the Italian one.

The Italian versions are mountains of capability ahead of the French one.

[ArmChairCivvy]

after having their trousers taken down and royally spanked over the carrier debacle

So you have read about the honey trap for the responsible Indian Admiral? Only the spanking detail is new for me (he was court marshalled, when found out... probably had to retire, to play more golf).

[ArmChairCivvy]

The italian FREMM programme for 10 ships costs 5680 million euro according to parliament documents.

vs.
"Les 11 frégates multimissions (FREMM) de la classe Aquitaine coûteront 7 milliards d’euros, a indiqué vendredi le ministre de la Défense Hervé Morin. Soit 636 millions d’euros l’unité."

The French are more expensive, and the Italian ones are more capable.
- I would think that the Italian figure is the construction & fitting out cost (they have no Horizon vessels to spread the cost of R&D over), whereas the French one is probably closer to a programme cost (and might even take a share of what initially went into their two Horizons?)
- wasn't the T45 build cost £500-600m and the programme cost (per unit) just shy of a bn?

[Gabriele]

I am genuinely at a loss as to how the French FREMM comes out cheaper than the Italian one.

The Italian versions are mountains of capability ahead of the French one.

Surely you mean more expensive...?

Yes, the italian ships are a lot better in many ways, with the exception of the cruise missiles. Each french frigate has 2 Sylver modules more than an italian one. Also, all french frigates are ASW with the towed sonar array, while just 4 of the italian ones are ASW. On the other hand, all italian FREMM have Sylver A50 and can employ Aster 30, not just the 15.

I'd say that part of the difference in cost is also due to how much the french FREMM programme has been messed with: it was going to be 17 ships, then it became 11, with probably only 8 actually going to the french navy. This constant dance of indecision costs. Italy's plan has remained overall stable all along, instead, bar for the decision to lengthen all ships by 3.5 meters after the first was already in the water. But apparently much of the cost had to be shouldered by Fincantieri.

[RetroSicotte]

Surely you mean more expensive...?

Yeah, thats the one.

I guess it's like all things. The moment messing happens, the cost goes up.

It's almost like ordering something then leaving the industry the hell alone to get on with it is the best way to do things or something.

[seaspear]

Thanks Gabriele

[shark bait]

I guess it's like all things. The moment messing happens, the cost goes up.

Totally true, that's why im still hopefull the T26 will be reasonable. It's bean a fairly stable low risk design, with nothing particularly ground breaking to go wrong and cause indecisiveness.

[Ron5]

I guess it's like all things. The moment messing happens, the cost goes up.

Totally true, that's why im still hopefull the T26 will be reasonable. It's bean a fairly stable low risk design, with nothing particularly ground breaking to go wrong and cause indecisiveness.

An average of half a billion a year for 20+ years to include every penny spent, sounds a sweet deal. If you could guarantee that you'd be run over by a herd of Treasury & MoD types trying to sign up.

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Related to what was being discussed earlier - as if by magic: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /72730048/

Like i said, parasitic.

[Lugzy]

Related to what was being discussed earlier - as if by magic: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /72730048/

Like i said, parasitic.

Totally agree with you , over the last decade India as been trying to obtain the latest and best military and civilian technology the world as to offer , they will deal with anyone Russia or the west , they use there geographical location to play im your friend with the U.S. The west and Russia to get the most they can from each ,

Tbh I'd stay well away from them , but the Indian Goverment know how to play this game , they know they are in a tug of war between Russia and the U.S. And they are taking the up most advantage of the situation , can't blame them tbh defence companies fall for the same trick every time ,

The Indian Goverment know if you chuck out a big enough tender , example for a few hundred of the latest fighter jets worth xxxxxxxxx of dollars (this is the bait ) , defence companies will flock to their door offering up the best they have , they play them along dragging out the process as long as possible then cancel the tender , and wait as defence companies who are involved scramble to make any sort of sale, at which time the Indian Goverment offer a smaller buy , a fraction of the original tender , and tech transfer etc comes into the deal , desperate to make a sale they agree ,
In the last few years this as been played out with contracts for helicopters,tanks artillery ,a number of naval vessel types , transport aircraft , fighter jets , some times successfully sometimes not , but their hunger for technology and advanced designs continues , so expect more large tenders in the future .

[desertswo]

Related to what was being discussed earlier - as if by magic: http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /72730048/

Like i said, parasitic.

Totally agree with you , over the last decade India as been trying to obtain the latest and best military and civilian technology the world as to offer , they will deal with anyone Russia or the west , they use there geographical location to play im your friend with the U.S. The west and Russia to get the most they can from each ,

Tbh I'd stay well away from them , but the Indian Goverment know how to play this game , they know they are in a tug of war between Russia and the U.S. And they are taking the up most advantage of the situation , can't blame them tbh defence companies fall for the same trick every time ,

The Indian Goverment know if you chuck out a big enough tender , example for a few hundred of the latest fighter jets worth xxxxxxxxx of dollars (this is the bait ) , defence companies will flock to their door offering up the best they have , they play them along dragging out the process as long as possible then cancel the tender , and wait as defence companies who are involved scramble to make any sort of sale, at which time the Indian Goverment offer a smaller buy , a fraction of the original tender , and tech transfer etc comes into the deal , desperate to make a sale they agree ,
In the last few years this as been played out with contracts for helicopters,tanks artillery ,a number of naval vessel types , transport aircraft , fighter jets , some times successfully sometimes not , but their hunger for technology and advanced designs continues , so expect more large tenders in the future .

For what it's worth, when I was on the Joint Staff, we in the Commander/Lieutenant Colonel - Captain/Colonel pay grades had to take turns showing up for certain "command performances." One of those was lunch with a visiting "ChOD." ChOD stood for "Chief of Defense," regardless of what their real title was in their own country, and they were roughly the equivalent of SECDEF and/or CJCS on our side. We weren't supposed to say or do anything except eat and listen. On one occasion I got to dine with the Indian ChOD. I don't remember his name, nor the context within which he made the following comment:

"We have a long history with the British. From where we sit, you look a lot like them."