Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[shark bait]

All we can say with certainty is the price somewhere between £800m and £1,200m

[dmereifield]

All we can say with certainty is the price somewhere between £800m and £1,200m

£1.2b I can see (£3.7b/3 =£1.23b), but where does the (speculated) £0.8b figure come from?

[shark bait]

It's difficult, the £3.7bn includes £1.3bn already announced for the Demonstration Phase, and Demonstration Phase extension.

Some of that £1.3bn will be fixed costs, some will be variable costs, so only part of that would count towards the 'per additional unit cost'

There is also another £200m contract with BAE for 4 guns, we don't know if this is counted in the £3.7bn figure or not.

So the true 'per additional unit cost' can't be accurately determined, thus somewhere between £800m and £1,200m

[marktigger]

are the guns new or recycled ex USN?

[Ron5]

Refurbished & updated, there's not been a Mk45 new build for many years. Like Phalanx, orders are supplied from the warehouses full of reclaimed weapons.

[Ron5]

An american internet hardman, arguing on the internet on the 4th of july. What a life you mist have!

Don't get your knickers in a twist little man, I was just offering some friendly advice to somebody else.

[donald_of_tokyo]

So, can we at least agree, what's the ( production ) cost of new Type 26 frigate? So, no development costs. Just production. For this, first batch.
( Yes, I know that later ships could have smaller price, because of equipment transferred from Type 23 )

No it includes design cost, at least part of, as I understand. From what info. do you think it does not ?

[SDL]

So, can we at least agree, what's the ( production ) cost of new Type 26 frigate? So, no development costs. Just production. For this, first batch.
( Yes, I know that later ships could have smaller price, because of equipment transferred from Type 23 )

No it includes design cost, at least part of, as I understand. From what info. do you think it does not ?

I've asked that a few times, not got an answer yet... doubt you will

[donald_of_tokyo]

I've asked that a few times, not got an answer yet... doubt you will

Yeh.
http://www.defensenews.com/articles/bae ... e-frigates
says,
"The £3.7 billion price tag for the three ships includes money already spent on long-lead items, ongoing development costs and some infrastructure work being paid for by the MoD at BAE’s two yards in Glasgow, Scotland, where the warships will be built."

Also Gabriele-san suggests "Most, but not all, of these almost 2 billion pounds, which have been converted in a long list of parts already on order / delivered / being delivered for the first three vessels, have effectively been announced a second time, because they are included in the 3.7 billion deal."

But both are article, and not official information. But, anyway you need to design before you buy...

[abc123]

So, can we at least agree, what's the ( production ) cost of new Type 26 frigate? So, no development costs. Just production. For this, first batch.
( Yes, I know that later ships could have smaller price, because of equipment transferred from Type 23 )

No it includes design cost, at least part of, as I understand. From what info. do you think it does not ?

Geoff Serle's Tweets.

"The £3.7B includes the Manufacturing Phase and long-lead supplier costs from previous phases"

Source: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.hr/

Now, of these costs, what do you think it included:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDuJoFrXsAAl9PI.jpg:large

[donald_of_tokyo]

Geoff Serle's Tweets.
"The £3.7B includes the Manufacturing Phase and long-lead supplier costs from previous phases"
Source: http://ukarmedforcescommentary.blogspot.hr/
Now, of these costs, what do you think it included:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DDuJoFrXsAAl9PI.jpg:large

Surely these 1.7-1.9B GBP includes design cost, for example Demonstration phase provides design (to some extent). But, exactly what is included in the "3.7B GBP figure" is not clear, I agree. So, practically speaking, it is still not clear. One clear thing is, MOD has already payed certain amount of design cost, just because of we will see the first steel cut soon.

It's difficult, the £3.7bn includes £1.3bn already announced for the Demonstration Phase, and Demonstration Phase extension.
Some of that £1.3bn will be fixed costs, some will be variable costs, so only part of that would count towards the 'per additional unit cost'
There is also another £200m contract with BAE for 4 guns, we don't know if this is counted in the £3.7bn figure or not.
So the true 'per additional unit cost' can't be accurately determined, thus somewhere between £800m and £1,200m

1.23B GBP per hull as "an average cost" is the thing we can say now. It is not necessarily unit cost, but just "not necessarily". On the other hand, if the 3.7B GBP does NOT include design cost, it means the total cost for 8 T26 shall surely exceed 8B GBP.

[abc123]

and some infrastructure work being paid for by the MoD at BAE’s two yards in Glasgow, Scotland, where the warships will be built."

Any more detailed info on that? Costs?

[abc123]

It seems that I have managed to find something:

Some £600 million of the demonstration phase deal will be spent on equipment from suppliers in Britain as well as North America and Europe.

BAE soon will start a £100 million makeover of the yards as part of a transformation effort aimed at putting them among the most efficient warship builders in the world ahead of production of the Type 26s.


http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /31152813/

That's from August of 2015.

So I presume that additional 472 million of pounds of Demonstration-extension from 2016 is not included. Now, if we take that about same amount of ( 600-850, it means 70% ) is for long lead items ( that's about 300 mil. pounds ), can we say that it's about 1 billion 600 + 100 + 300 ) of pounds that's included in 3,7 billions?

*With additional costs of 3 x Artisan and Sonar 2087- that's maybe what, 70 millions pounds per ship? That's about 200-250 mil. pounds total. CAAM is probably budgeted separately.

So, 3,7 bilions minus 250 millions minus 100 millions for shipyards- that's about 3,3 billions. Divided on 3 ships- it's about 1,1 billion of pounds per ship.

What do you think?

[Gabriele]

Will Phalanx be also taken from type 23 and transferred?

Well, not possible as they do not have it in the first place. If Type 26 ever gets the CIWS fit, they'll need to buy new mounts for every ship as there are no spare ones for 8 frigates.

Maybe you were thinking of the DS30M light guns. Those will definitely migrate from old hull to new hull, i'd think.

[Pongoglo]

No because Type 23 dont have Phalanx - unfortunately it has to be said ! I had hoped that at least one would have been fitted in place of the the Sea Wolf trackers, but it would appear we dont have the dosh....

[abc123]

Will Phalanx be also taken from type 23 and transferred?

Well, not possible as they do not have it in the first place. If Type 26 ever gets the CIWS fit, they'll need to buy new mounts for every ship as there are no spare ones for 8 frigates.

Maybe you were thinking of the DS30M light guns. Those will definitely migrate from old hull to new hull, i'd think.

Maybe. I was 100% convinced that Type 23s have Phalanx.

I stand corrected.

[Ron5]

Hopefully the new laser development project will be mature enough that the T26's get a couple instead of the Phalanx. It will be a long while before they are fitted.

[abc123]

Hopefully the new laser development project will be mature enough that the T26's get a couple instead of the Phalanx. It will be a long while before they are fitted.

Yeah, it might be just ready for first Type 26.

[Defiance]

Would the Type 23's have the power allowance to use an operationally relevant laser without compromising other tasks?

[shark bait]

The ones we have seen so far have their own generators so they can be used independently of the ships systems, great for emergency situations.

[Ron5]

Would the Type 23's have the power allowance to use an operationally relevant laser without compromising other tasks?

Probably not but regardless, the T23's would still have the problem that prevents Phalanx installation i.e. lack of sufficient top weight margins.

[Defiance]

Would the Type 23's have the power allowance to use an operationally relevant laser without compromising other tasks?

Probably not but regardless, the T23's would still have the problem that prevents Phalanx installation i.e. lack of sufficient top weight margins.

Were it possible, it'd be interesting to see the true difference between the replacement of Sea Wolf with CAMM in that regard, similarly the anticipation of the removal of Harpoon and associated gubbins.

Considering the length of time they intend to be in service, they can't afford to put on too much weight.

[Ron5]

Radar got heavier and that's a lot higher and therefore has a bigger effect.

[shark bait]

The USN have just posted a requirement for a ASW fleet escort, guided missile frigate that can operate drones.....

....BAE must be rubbing their hands together.

[Gabriele]

I have far more chances to become Pope than Type 26 has to become the US Navy's frigate.

The requirements in the RFI basically are for a slower LCS with more accommodation and, possibly, a few VLS if they fit. The rest is unchanged from earlier LCS Fast Frigate plans, so i really don't get where the "major shift" the press is babbling about is.