Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Thorvicson]

Navy News a while back indicated that the names would be related to the Battle of the Atlantic. No Towns sadly.

Bird class - Peacock, Starling etc, Flowers or maybe Lochs ?

[Smokey]

Navy News a while back indicated that the names would be related to the Battle of the Atlantic. No Towns sadly.

HMS Bulldog? - Capture of an Enigma cipher machine

HMS Walker? - sank U-100 and while picking up survivors spotted U-99 and depth charged her to the surface . Capture of Its Captain, Otto Kretschmer.

Would also tie in nicely with Frederick "Johnnie" Walker. DSO & 3 Bars. Our most successful U-Boat hunter.

Just speculating...

[SKB]

Why does each vessel name of the class have to start with the same letter, to my knowlage that's only been done with the T45s and Astutes.
The T23s don't follow that pattern so why should the T26s

There were also the A Class (Amazon) T21's, the B (Broadsword) Class T22's. But as A class is already being used by the Astute class subs, another letter is needed. F hasn't been used for a while. And F is also for Frigate. (Just as D (Daring Class T45's) is for Destroyer)

[Timmymagic]

It would be nice to name them after some of the smaller ships from the Battle of the Atlantic. They deserve recognition as much as the more glamorous names. It would make sense to name them after the 1934 'F' Class destroyers which served on convoy duties in the Atlantic and Med. They were there from the start and all had lots of active service.

Only 1 problem....there were only 9 of them....

[Timmymagic]

Would also tie in nicely with Frederick "Johnnie" Walker. DSO & 3 Bars. Our most successful U-Boat hunter.

Wouldn't that mean calling one HMS Starling?

We could even name some of them after WW2 Captains and Admirals. It's about time they had some recognition. HMS Vian, HMS Somerville, HMS Cunningham, HMS Ramsey, HMS Esmonde.

Unfortunately HMS Pound and HMS Warburton Lee don't sound as great.

[SKB]

Ok, lets keep this thread for T26 news as thread title describes. Discussion/speculation for the Future Escorts thread

[-Eddie-]

BAE Systems lands multi-billion pound deal for Royal Navy frigates
BAE Systems and the Ministry of Defence have signed a long-awaited multi-billion pound deal to build the first three of eight new frigates for the Royal Navy

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/201 ... -frigates/

Didn't expect anything better than this, but contract negotiations for the other 5 not to be started until 'early 2020s' according to the Plymouth Herald. Hopefully by then we'll see more cash released to the Royal Navy and a bump in the planned order, up to 13?

[dmereifield]

Hardly the "big news", just confirmation of what's was already suspected. Disappointing that the first of class will be delivered in the mid 2020's....

[ArmChairCivvy]

Disappointing that the first of class will be delivered in the mid 2020's...

Stringing it out, to meet TOBA?

Or, no money? Or, both...

[dmereifield]

If they are stretching it out that much then we might even see the first T31 enter service before the T26?? Let's hope the NSS is positive, and released soon...

[FuNsTeR]

Disappointing that the first of class will be delivered in the mid 2020's...

Stringing it out, to meet TOBA?

Or, no money? Or, both...

the article i saw was quoting £3.7 billion for the first 3 type 26s that's £1.2 billion per ship or 2 FREMMs for the price of 1 type 26, that is a hefty price tag, i'm hoping the £4.7 billion quoted on the telegraph is for all 8 and the article i saw was wrong



http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... -deal.html

[CR4ZYHOR5E]

£3.7 billion for 3 ships!!!

[inch]

at 1.2b per ship we really should just buy fremm no questions there folks ,that's just ridiculous that's nearly 10b for all 8 ships .how is this possible .what the hell is going on?. time to ditch made in uk at them prices .no wonder we going to be only left with a few escorts for our fleet ,and no chance of selling them to Australia or Canada at them prices .all I can say is FLIPPIN UNBELIEVABLE

[WhiteWhale]

How can that even be legal, absolute extortion.

A billion each for a very mediocre and under equipped ship. What a joke.

[SDL]

How much of the initial cost are the T26s and how much is the cost of setting up production of them?

[donald_of_tokyo]

the article i saw was quoting £3.7 billion for the first 3 type 26s that's £1.2 billion per ship or 2 FREMMs for the price of 1 type 26, that is a hefty price tag, i'm hoping the £4.7 billion quoted on the telegraph is for all 8 and the article i saw was wrong

I read two numbers
- £3.7B, which is including the money already payed (for long lead items), as well as design costs. See Defencenews:

The £3.7 billion price tag for the three ships includes money already spent on long-lead items, ongoing development costs and some infrastructure work being paid for by the MoD at BAE’s two yards in Glasgow, Scotland, where the warships will be built. (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/bae ... e-frigates)

- £4.7B, referred in dailymail, telegraph.

I guess former is the right number, but only guess. But anyway will be clear in due course.


£3.7B for 3 hull including the development cost, is just as expected and not too expensive. For example, if we assume the unit cost is £730M, design cost (2-3 unit cost) will be £1.45-2.2B, and 3 unit costs will be 2.2B. Thus, £3.7B is exactly on the line for "2-unit equivalent design cost" + "3 unit cost". Even in FREMM, the design cost amounted to ~3 unit cost, so there is no big problem here.

Comparing "the FREMM final unit cost" to "the T26 cost including design and 3 hull simple divided by 3", is simply a mistake. On the other hand, if you think £730M per unit is too costy, I have no objection.

[inch]

no chances of selling any to other countries at them prices ,Canada will go fremm and Australia will go navantia that's the way I see it maybe Australia fremm also ?,but neither will go type26 route they would be insane at them prices only the uk is that crazy folks,next will be 550million for each type31 extended opv with a bit bigger gun and no hangar

[donald_of_tokyo]

T26 is the most expensive one, sure. 24 strike VLSs, "super" quiet hull, long range/endurance, big mission bay, big automated arsenal for 127mm gun. All of them do not exist in other 2 candidates and make T26 expensive even without the fact the BAES is not so much good at ship building as DCNS, Navantia.

[Aethulwulf]

If Donald's numbers are right, the next batch of 5 T26 ships should also cost £3.7b.

It will be interesting to see what the real figure turns out to be, and whether MOD's decision to wait until the Terms of Business Agreement expires, and there is extra competition from the T31 yards, results in a lower price.

[Aethulwulf]

Canada has budgeted upto £35b ($60b can) to buy their 15 ships. That is well over £2b per ship. They accept that some of this high price is because they will be built in Canada.

Anyway, with today's figures putting the UPC of the T26 at about £740m, it is clearly not out of the running for the Canadian competition.

[donald_of_tokyo]

If Donald's numbers are right, the next batch of 5 T26 ships should also cost £3.7b.
It will be interesting to see what the real figure turns out to be, and whether MOD's decision to wait until the Terms of Business Agreement expires, and there is extra competition from the T31 yards, results in a lower price.

You are right. But, it is not related to my figure. Design cost exists, it is never free. It is clearly noted elsewhere. For example, see FREMM wiki.

If my figure for 2 unit-equivalent design cost is right, yes the another 5 units will be ordered to be £3.7b. On the other hand, we all know that the total "planned" cost is £8b. So, it must be ~£4.3b, excluding inflation. I hope, really hope this number do not rise.

On TOBA, I think it is needed. HMG MUST think about long-term ship building balance. If HMG executes it, TOBA will not be activated. If ship-build stops, the penalty will be very cost, much more than TOBA. The execution of TOBA (River B2s) is clear evidence for how the HMG in 2010-15 was stupid not to think about ship building balance.

[dmereifield]

If Donald's numbers are right, the next batch of 5 T26 ships should also cost £3.7b.

It will be interesting to see what the real figure turns out to be, and whether MOD's decision to wait until the Terms of Business Agreement expires, and there is extra competition from the T31 yards, results in a lower price.

Surely the T31 will only be competition if it is ASW capable? We are told that we need a minimum of 8 ASW specialised platforms, and have 8 towed sonars, so if the T31 doesn't have ASW capability baked in, or future proofed for configuration, we are going to have to pay for the 8 T26 come what may....

[easton]

Bit disappointed in the length of time allocated to the building of the three ships. According to 'Navy News' the first ship will be laid down shortly; the second in 2019; and the 3rd in 2021. A build schedule of once every two years which means that the eighth ship will not be laid down until 2031. Unless the Type 31's are started in the years in between, there could be a shortfall in frigate numbers as the Type 23's are withdrawn on the basis of one per year starting with HMS Argyll in 2023 and finishing with HMS St Albans in 2035. We need the National Shipbuilding Strategy to confirm the Type 31's if such a shortfall is to be avoided.

[inch]

So the upshot is we get 8 type 26 slightly more suitable for asw or we could have had 16 fremm for the same price or there abouts and not have to spend on type 31 or use money too up arm the fremm more or spend on something else needed ,people might say well its prob going to be best asw frigate but I'm sure France thinks there's is up to the job of protecting their navy ,just a thought

[donald_of_tokyo]

Refer from Navy News Facebook, worth referring I think: I underlined key points, as I understand.

THE first of the Navy’s next-generation frigates will be laid down before the month is out after a £3.7bn order was placed for three Type 26s.
Whitehall today signed a contract with BAE to deliver the first batch of ‘global combat ships’ – the first three of eight vessels which will replace the equivalent number of specialist submarine-hunting Type 23 frigates. Yards at Govan and Scotstoun on the Clyde will be responsible for building and fitting out the trio, with the first of the as-yet-unnamed class entering service in the mid-2020s.
What we will get for our £3.7bn are three warships 60ft longer, 2,000 tonnes heavier than their predecessors, equipped with bow and towed array sonar, Sea Ceptor air defence missiles, a 5in main gun as the RN’s trusty 4.5in is retired after decades of faithful service, a ‘mission bay’ for ‘plug in’ containers containing equipment for specific tasks, such as disaster relief, and a flight deck big enough to take a Chinook (though Merlin and Wildcat will be more common). In due course, firepower will be bolstered by the ‘future offensive surface weapon’ – the missile currently being developed to replace the obsolescent Harpoon. Typically just 157 men and women – 30-40 fewer than a Type 23 – will run these ships, but there will be space aboard for up to 208 souls. The 26s are expected to serve for at least 25 years, take the RN to the cusp of the 2060s. In addition, five general duty frigates – Type 31s – which will replace the five non-submarine-hunting 23s remain earmarked under the 2015 Defence Review.
“This is the start of a programme of anti-submarine ships which will form the mainstay of the Royal Navy’s frigate fore for decades to come,” said Rear Admiral Chris Gardner, Assistant Chief of Naval Staff (Ships).
Work on Ship 2 is due to start in two years’ time with No.3 laid down in 2021. Their names – and their base ports – have yet to be decided. The hulls will be built at Govan, then moved downstream to Scotstoun for fitting out and testing. Of the 13 Type 23 frigates currently in service, the oldest, HMS Argyll, is due to pay off in 2023; the youngest, St Albans, will conduct patrols at home and aboard until 2035. That is when construction of their successors will be completed; the Type 26 is intended to keep the Clyde yards busy until the mid-2030s with the order for the second batch of five ships placed next decade.
The work will support and sustain 3,400 jobs – half in the shipyards, half in the supply chain providing parts and equipment such as radar built on the Isle of Wight and the submarine-hunting towed array sonar from Manchester.


=======================================

Comments:
- it is £3.7bn
- it has typically 157 crews, 30-40 less than those of T23. Not 118, as expected. With 8 T26s replacing T23, only 280 crew will be freed up.
- T23GP is non-submarine-hunting escorts, as they say. This has two aspects I guess:
A: T23GP is non ASW, so T31 will also be non ASW.
B: T23GP is non ASW escort, so even if a T31 is as ASW capable as a T23GP, it will still be "non-ASW escort" (e.g. so so quiet hull, with hull sonar and open space astern, or even with CAPTAS-1/2 onboard, will still be non-submarine-hunting. I guess? )
- It will be 1 hulls every 2 years (sad). But it says by 2036 all 13 will be replaced. So, I think, this clearly means concurrent build of T31 is intended.