Type 26 Frigate (City Class) (RN) [News Only]

[Ron5]

RON 5 I went to the site you mentioned but it only provided me the ability to buy the book itself ,I would ask if you could please cite in detail the areas of concern the author raises as the book itself is 2003, I would also ask that if you could show the relevancy to present naval vessels in the quotes .

Don't be ridiculous. Do your own research.

[Ron5]

No, i want to hear a more relevant comparison. I want to hear what kind of amazing survivability feature Type 26 supposedly would have over and above what the FREMM have, while being only a few meters larger, but with far more space taken up by weapons, Chinook-flight deck and mission bay, stores for 60 days and while having a smaller core crew to respond to emergencies with.

Yeah gabrielle, nobody else know's how to build modern warships, nobody but Britain... FREMM sucks because it isn't built in Britain and by BAE- if it was it would probably be the best frigate ever...

No, no, no, not Britain. Britain and the US. You know, the only two countries to have won naval wars in the past 200 years. Please do try to keep up.

[malcrf]

The exocet did not sink HMS Sheffield. She was hit on 4th May 1982 and remained afloat until 10th May 1982 (6 days), when under tow from HMS Yarmouth on a course heading to South Georgia, she flooded in high seas and sank. As a consequence of her sinking, HMS Sheffield became a war grave and is designated as a 'Protected Place' under the 'Protection of Military Remains Act 1986'.

You're being pedantic in a non-helpful way. The fact is that Sheffield was in no fit state to fight, and that was as a result of just the kinetic energy from the Exocet.

So the question remains, just how valuable is survivability? Do you have one picket ship or three? When choosing between the T45 and the Iver Huitfeldts that's the equation you have.

Perhaps you're better off having more ships and trying to ensure you pick off all incoming aircraft and missiles? If not, perhaps we should go further along the survivability spectrum so the ship can still fight after being hit? What would that mean? Double or Triple armoured hulls? Dual redundant CMS's? Multiple radar/missile systems?

And the Dane's seem to think they incorporated a fair amount of survivability into the design and build of the Iver Huitfeldts....................

[seaspear]

Perhaps the survivability of the crew is the first consideration ,which ship and its defensive systems would be likely to survive an attack ,even the types of steel can vary as per USS Cole which would of had more significant damage if not for its ballistic steel

[arfah]

........... .. .

[ArmChairCivvy]

Not sure about a new thread, but the Danish frigate programme and its procurement model might be relevant to the Light Frigate thread (no cross- thread quotes, so will put a few thoughts here);

The Danes achieved substantially lower cost figures by
1. separating higher cost equipment from that of the platform; should be done as over-life upgrades will change many of the systems anyway. Upgradability as such should be a justification for some premium on the price of the platform
2. scavenging (here we call it re-use; how much is going to happen in the end for the T26s; is it going to be the new class that will get the most, other than the towed array) weapon systems from decommissioning T23s,
3. accepting incomplete warships for service (here we call that sea trials; we would not delay e.g. the QE ISD by two years for the fun of detonating a huge charge near to its hull, though), and
4.purchasing their vessels from a single, robust commercial shipbuilder not dependent on or affected by unstable government ship acquisition processes. However, the design bureau has been spun-off from the building yard (though still under the same - commercial! - ownership). The close liaison between DALO (call it DE&S) and the design bureau (OMT, we have BMT here) brings the checks and balances to the relationship with the builder... exactly the thing we are lacking with the Design&Build contracts with BAE?

[shark bait]

Not sure about a new thread, but the Danish frigate programme and its procurement model might be relevant to the Light Frigate thread (no cross- thread quotes, so will put a few thoughts here);

We're trying points 1 & 2, so perhaps our problem lies at point 4.

I think it does, its a model thats failed us many times.

[ArmChairCivvy]

We're trying points 1 & 2, so perhaps our problem lies at point 4.

One of the first things the new US DefSec (with a procurement background) did was a field trip to fact find about the Danish Frigate Programme. I would think he leaves the ship characteristics to the Navy and would primarily have been interested in the proc model (however, I don't have the clearance to read his trip report...).

[malcrf]

you're obviously a huge fan (or Danish).

I just struggle with the size of our current armed forces and firmly believe that we get the balance between quantity and qualiity wrong. I'm just not convinced that always having small numbers of the gilt edged solution works for us, particularly when we then underarm some platforms (like the T45).

I'd like the balance realigned and if achieving reasonable numbers (surface combatants and fast jets for example) means a two-tier strategy then I'd be happy with that.....................so 13 T26s or 8 T26s and 8 Iver Huitfeldts, then the latter would suit me fine. And I'd rather have some more Typhoons and a whole bunch of Gripens than a modicum of F35s.

[malcrf]

Perhaps the survivability of the crew is the first consideration ,which ship and its defensive systems would be likely to survive an attack ,even the types of steel can vary as per USS Cole which would of had more significant damage if not for its ballistic steel

Don't get me wrong, I want the crew to survive, but perhaps more ships giving each other cover is a better route than one getting overwhelmed by threats or succumbing to an equipment/systems malfunction at a critical moment.

[seaspear]

Im going ot here but when Australia committed to the Spanish F1oo [known as the Hobart class] a large increase in cost was do to the use of ballistic steel , there many other improvements of course ,ballistic steel has been shown to improve the survivability of a ship ,there are pictures of the USS Cole showing where the ballistic steel stayed intact , I dont know if any of the cheaper naval vessels have been built with a quality ballistic steel or for that matter which of the more expensive vessels like the T26 T45,s and even the Fremm,s ,another consideration in survivability is compartmentalisation, what is known of the cheaper vessels use of this in survivability ,the information publicly available on many of the ships is usually about their sensors ,weapons, performance capabilities all the sexy stuff , are there vessels out there with glass jaws .

[shark bait]

I'd like the balance realigned and if achieving reasonable numbers (surface combatants and fast jets for example) means a two-tier strategy then I'd be happy with that.....................so 13 T26s or 8 T26s and 8 Iver Huitfeldts, then the latter would suit me fine. And I'd rather have some more Typhoons and a whole bunch of Gripens than a modicum of F35s.

I think a discount T26 would look quite alot like the Iver Huitfeld class, a little bit shorter, simpler hull, simpler propulsion and less systems. If that is achievable and it boosts escort numbers I think it would be a success.

However, not the Gripen

[abc123]

I would say that when the UK has 13 frigates ( maybe, for now 8 is for sure ) and the bloody Denmark ( 13-14 x smaller country ) has 5, something is pretty rotten in the state of Britain...

[bobp]

The SDSR said we will have 8 T26 Frigates, but have delayed the start wanting further maturity in the design. I understood that bits for the first three have been pre ordered, and that steel cutting was for next year. So my question is what further maturity, do they intend to cut back on something in the design to make it cheaper?

[~UNiOnJaCk~]

Im going ot here but when Australia committed to the Spanish F1oo [known as the Hobart class] a large increase in cost was do to the use of ballistic steel , there many other improvements of course ,ballistic steel has been shown to improve the survivability of a ship ,there are pictures of the USS Cole showing where the ballistic steel stayed intact , I dont know if any of the cheaper naval vessels have been built with a quality ballistic steel or for that matter which of the more expensive vessels like the T26 T45,s and even the Fremm,s ,another consideration in survivability is compartmentalisation, what is known of the cheaper vessels use of this in survivability ,the information publicly available on many of the ships is usually about their sensors ,weapons, performance capabilities all the sexy stuff , are there vessels out there with glass jaws .

Speaking of the Spanish you reminded me of something relevant - the F110, possibly another good case study candidate for how to do 'light right': http://www.defensenews.com/story/defens ... /31840781/

[SKB]

I would say that when the UK has 13 frigates ( maybe, for now 8 is for sure ) and the bloody Denmark ( 13-14 x smaller country ) has 5, something is pretty rotten in the state of Britain...

Found a list of frigates worldwide: http://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-frigates.asp

[Pymes75]

I would say that when the UK has 13 frigates ( maybe, for now 8 is for sure ) and the bloody Denmark ( 13-14 x smaller country ) has 5, something is pretty rotten in the state of Britain...

Found a list of frigates worldwide: http://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-frigates.asp

LOL! Any site than can only be bothered to simply total up the number of 'vessels' (no doubt including canoes and water wings) is just laughable....

Oh, and they've conveniently forgotten to include a catagory for cruisers - and then not even bothered to include them in the USNs list of destroyers (as the closest class of surface combatant).

How about they list countries by the number of fast jets their 'carrier force' can put to sea? How about the total volume of maritime fuels that could be carried by their auxiliaries? Yes, all a bit more difficult to quantify but at least closer to actual naval power.

[Ron5]

I would say that when the UK has 13 frigates ( maybe, for now 8 is for sure ) and the bloody Denmark ( 13-14 x smaller country ) has 5, something is pretty rotten in the state of Britain...

Found a list of frigates worldwide: http://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-frigates.asp

LOL! Any site than can only be bothered to simply total up the number of 'vessels' (no doubt including canoes and water wings) is just laughable....

Oh, and they've conveniently forgotten to include a catagory for cruisers - and then not even bothered to include them in the USNs list of destroyers (as the closest class of surface combatant).

How about they list countries by the number of fast jets their 'carrier force' can put to sea? How about the total volume of maritime fuels that could be carried by their auxiliaries? Yes, all a bit more difficult to quantify but at least closer to actual naval power.

Oh come on, they are all called frigates so they must have exactly the same qualities. Clearly Denmark could mount a Falklands operation just as well as the Brits.

[WhitestElephant]

You will never truly understand a nations military capabilities by simply comparing numbers. In fact, a numbers based comparison will tend to portray armed forces which are incompetent paper tigers as military superpowers *cough* India *cough*.

I am surprised that the website (which appears to me nothing more than a numbers comparison) actually placed the UK 5th overall! This implies whatever creature runs the site, merely ranks countries according who his own personal views.

Stay away from that site.

[The Armchair Soldier]

The latest edition of the Royal Aeronautical Society's AEROSPACE magazine has a feature on Perseus (or whatever the future Anglo-French AShM will be called). Does anyone have a subscription and is kind enough to share some details?

http://aerosociety.com/News/Insight-Blo ... ember-2015

[abc123]

I would say that when the UK has 13 frigates ( maybe, for now 8 is for sure ) and the bloody Denmark ( 13-14 x smaller country ) has 5, something is pretty rotten in the state of Britain...

Found a list of frigates worldwide: http://www.globalfirepower.com/navy-frigates.asp

Even better link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Main_Page

[617]

Anyone got the faintest idea about what the new type 26s will be called, it would be great to see a HMS Plymouth. Will we find out in 2016 what all 8 will be called?

[marktigger]

Anyone got the faintest idea about what the new type 26s will be called, it would be great to see a HMS Plymouth. Will we find out in 2016 what all 8 will be called?

yes it would be nice if they had town names from all over the united kingdom

HMS Antrim would be nice as well

or even better LondonDerry

[SKB]

They are likely to be names beginning to be the letter 'F'
A was used for Astute class subamrines
D was used dor the Daring class T45 destoyers - D for destroyer too.
E used for Echo class survey vessels.
F would be the next logical letter. - F is for frigate too.

[Tony Williams]

They are likely to be names beginning to be the letter 'F'

Could always pick some placenames from Wales - choose from:

Ffaifach, Ffaldybrenin, Ffarmers, Ffawyddog, Ffestiniog, Fforest, Fforest-fach, Ffostrasol, Ffrith, Ffynnon-ddrain