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Scimitar Class Fast Patrol Vessels (RN)

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ArmChairCivvy
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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Aug 2017, 11:01

donald_of_tokyo wrote: With 12 of these, 480M GBP, or more.


A half-way house between patrol
http://www.trdefence.com/wp-content/upl ... 00x200.jpg ... is there a remote turret, magnification does not quite tell me (lack of pixels?)
and SAR... for less

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Dave » 16 Aug 2017, 11:51

ArmChairCivvy wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote: With 12 of these, 480M GBP, or more.


A half-way house between patrol
Image
... is there a remote turret, magnification does not quite tell me (lack of pixels?)
and SAR... for less


That looks quite good.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 16 Aug 2017, 13:55

RAN Armidale class is AU$24-28M = 14-17M GBP. But, it is a simple long-range patrol craft. No sonar, no depth charge, no LMM missile, only 25 knot max. Being 57m long, too large for port defense, but good for EEZ patrol.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 16 Aug 2017, 14:15

Why doesn't gib going in with the mod for a bulk replacement of the archers and scimitars to give a fleet of port protection and training vessels hopeful drive down the per unit price ?

From what gib are saying they want something that is larger and better armed than either if the current archers or scimitars. Now with out going in to over kill e.g something like the rivers, the best fit Iv seem out there right now for this is the US mk6 patrol boat.
Iv said on here over and over but it fits exactly what's being asked for at 25m length 7.6m beam fitted with 2 x 25mm chain guns and mounts for various other armaments a top speed of 45knot and a rang of 750nm, wgats not to like ?

Currently priced at $15m or around £12m per hull, with a large buy of say 20 to replace all the archers an scimitars we could at 2 at gib, 2 at Plymouth, 2 at Portsmouth and 2 at Faslane. The rest could be used for training and called for if ever needed

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Repulse » 16 Aug 2017, 16:14

Jake1992 wrote:buy of say 20 to replace all the archers an scimitars


Keep the Archers as is, good RNR / University boats that could be quickly bought into service if needed.

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I won't be surprised if it costs 40M GBP per unit or even more. With 12 of these, 480M GBP, or more.


Why? I believe the US paid 2.7mn USB per CB90 back in 2007, so should be south of £10mn even with a Sigma Seahawk. I'd say all in for 8 units should be £100mn max.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 16 Aug 2017, 20:12

Dave wrote:That looks quite good.


Yep, and it is big enough to be able to launch the boat leeside (turning suitably) to handle higher sea states.

There was no data for it, just a caption "new Turkish patrol boat".

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 16 Aug 2017, 23:10

Repulse wrote:Been reading about the WW2 Coastal Forces over the hols. Seems to me that the role of the Scimitars and the 2 Archers at Clyde are akin to the Harbour defence motor launches (HDMLs).

Strikes me that with the increase threat from terrorism, incursion and reliance on a smaller number of key ports / HUVs, that the need for HDMLs is increasing.

I'd say that not only would they need speed, but also reasonable sensors / armament to tackle surface, sub surface and air threats; especially UAVs and swarm motor boats.

Some say the CB90 is a good candidate, but I'd say that a specific design is needed. For example:

- @20m length
- 40 kt max speed with a range @500nm
- SharpEye SCV radar
- Kongsberg SIMRAD sonar
- 30mm gun (possible Sigma Seahawk with LMM)
- Twin GPMGs
- Depth charges

Total class 12 ships, 2 in each port: Clyde, Portsmouth, Plymouth, Cyprus, Gibraltar and Oman.

How about one of these? As a very young cadet at Renny Lentney, I had the privilege of taking a trip around the Eddystone lighthouse on Brave Borderer . She had been decommissioned only a few days before.
https://www.google.com/search?q=brave+b ... e&ie=UTF-8
The pessimist sees difficulty in every opportunity. The optimist sees the opportunity in every difficulty.
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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby S M H » 17 Aug 2017, 00:01

Repulse wrote:Keep the Archers as is, good RNR / University boats that could be quickly bought into service if needed.
The primary duty of the Gibraltar Squadron when formed was Local S.A.R.. Plane guard with the runway ends into the sea. Along with surveillance work.This required some very long transits. When the archer boats were in use by the squadron it reduced the response times to a runway incident of eastern beach. In response the Fire Section at the airport got the Atlantic 21 s. to remedy this in part. That was the primary reasoning for the Scimitar class use by the Gibraltar Squadron. To enable a boat to respond to a incident of the eastern end of the runway quickly (squadron has to have boat on standby for all military aircraft arrivals and departures including M.O.D. charter flights] . A pair of damans tacked on the Customs order would have be ideal. They don't need to be warship standard construction. In fact the present boats are not. They would cover the ops requirement easily. With the fire monitor swapped out for a 30 mm gun for handling the incursion incidents. Retaining the customs sensor sweet allowing better local surveillance . If Guard duties are required as a primary requirement then a batch 1 river would be useable. but not at the expense of the present squadron craft.as a river would have to pre position for a take off or landing at the eastern end of the runway to meet runway guard ops requirement.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 Aug 2017, 02:55

Repulse wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:I won't be surprised if it costs 40M GBP per unit or even more. With 12 of these, 480M GBP, or more.

Why? I believe the US paid 2.7mn USB per CB90 back in 2007, so should be south of £10mn even with a Sigma Seahawk. I'd say all in for 8 units should be £100mn max.
Ops. Sorry I mis read your idea.
- misunderstood as "40m length", with "shallow water ASW sonar"
- you are proposing 20m length, with Fishery detection sonar-based simple one. So, much more Dvora or Mk.6 like. Cheaper than my posts.

I agree it will be "good", but I prefer ORC-class smaller ones or CB90 at the largest, for port defense roles. In this case, it can be carried on T26 (CB90 may not?), River B2, and LPDs to be deployed, and can be used in Amphibious operations = can be built in number.

I think only Gib has different requirement list. So maybe better to just buy something off-the-shelf (like S.Dvora Mk.3) or "go-along with" CB90-like.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Repulse » 17 Aug 2017, 10:07

donald_of_tokyo wrote:Ops. Sorry I mis read your idea.
- misunderstood as "40m length", with "shallow water ASW sonar"
- you are proposing 20m length, with Fishery detection sonar-based simple one. So, much more Dvora or Mk.6 like. Cheaper than my posts.

I agree it will be "good", but I prefer ORC-class smaller ones or CB90 at the largest, for port defense roles. In this case, it can be carried on T26 (CB90 may not?), River B2, and LPDs to be deployed, and can be used in Amphibious operations = can be built in number.

I think only Gib has different requirement list. So maybe better to just buy something off-the-shelf (like S.Dvora Mk.3) or "go-along with" CB90-like.


No problem, thought our wires had crossed. The only item I'm not sure on is if a more capable sonar would be needed to detect UUVs.

Completely agree on the option to deploy via other vessels which is why 20m should be the max length.

I do like the ORCs/ CB90s but they lack the capabilities and firepower to tackle anything beyond a speed boat or two. What is needed is ability to tackle a swarm of speedboats and USuVs, UAVs and UUVs. This is needed for all the locations in stated in my view.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Aug 2017, 10:14

Repulse wrote:Completely agree on the option to deploy via other vessels which is why 20m should be the max length.


There we go (I agree this is a good thing); aren't davits limited to 19 m max?

But the wish list (the brimming with armament) would only become realistic in the size class of HMC cutters ; 42 m and the latest +20% (more like that one).
- those bought new were £4m+ apiece

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 Aug 2017, 11:28

I don't think 30 mm gun is good within a port. And without 30 mm gun, a 20 m boat is feasible.

I think 4 small boats equipped with 7.62 mm gatling guns on stabilized turllet will be better than 2 crafts with a30 mm gun.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 17 Aug 2017, 11:56

Luckily you can order a CB90 with a James Bond style double MG mount https://cdn.cliqz.com/snippets/wikipedi ... t90HMG.jpg

That is remote controlled; whether you could drive the boat in remote, from a Nokia Communicator... the story does not tell.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 Aug 2017, 13:17

I think the machine guns must be stabilized. But, there are now many types of stabilized RWS with 12.7mm or 7.62 mm guns for ground application as well as naval one. Example of the later is the mini-typhoon 12.7mm turret onboard RNZN frigates. I think those can be mounted onboard CB90 as well. New technology is lightweight and highly capable. Yes, it is a bit expensive but I think "stabilized mount" is more than 10 times "powerful" than non-stabilized ones. And buying 10 CB90 with non-stabilized 12.7mm guns will be expensive than buying 1 CB90 with stabilized mount.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Old RN » 17 Aug 2017, 13:58

What about the CBA40mm turret from the UK Ajax armoured vehicle. It is already in production and stabilized (albeit for cross country use!)

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Dahedd » 17 Aug 2017, 14:28

Old RN wrote:What about the CBA40mm turret from the UK Ajax armoured vehicle. It is already in production and stabilized (albeit for cross country use!)


I've suggested this before. It's already been developed as the RAPIDfire anti aircraft system & I believe Thales have touted it as a ship system. Make sense to me from a commonality perspective.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 17 Aug 2017, 15:04

I do not think a 20m vessel can handle 40mm CTA cannon. Also I think it is toooooo-much over kill. If used in Portsmouth, on the line of fire there is surely an apartment or park or navy's base itself. I see no good point on arming port defense boat with such a large calibre cannons.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby The Mintcake Maker » 18 Aug 2017, 00:08

Repulse wrote:
donald_of_tokyo wrote:Ops. Sorry I mis read your idea.
- misunderstood as "40m length", with "shallow water ASW sonar"
- you are proposing 20m length, with Fishery detection sonar-based simple one. So, much more Dvora or Mk.6 like. Cheaper than my posts.

I agree it will be "good", but I prefer ORC-class smaller ones or CB90 at the largest, for port defense roles. In this case, it can be carried on T26 (CB90 may not?), River B2, and LPDs to be deployed, and can be used in Amphibious operations = can be built in number.

I think only Gib has different requirement list. So maybe better to just buy something off-the-shelf (like S.Dvora Mk.3) or "go-along with" CB90-like.


No problem, thought our wires had crossed. The only item I'm not sure on is if a more capable sonar would be needed to detect UUVs.

Completely agree on the option to deploy via other vessels which is why 20m should be the max length.

I do like the ORCs/ CB90s but they lack the capabilities and firepower to tackle anything beyond a speed boat or two. What is needed is ability to tackle a swarm of speedboats and USuVs, UAVs and UUVs. This is needed for all the locations in stated in my view.


Did you see my post at the end of page 1 https://ukdefenceforum.net/viewtopic.php?p=50334#p50334 Repulse and Donald-san? I think it would cover everything you want Repulse. The basic vessel is cheap (£1.5m built abroad ~£2m since Holyhead marine have been building similar smaller versions), same design as RGP boat so we could pool some maintenance costs. Could easily take a manual 0.5 Cal or remote mini-typhoon system (maybe something a little bigger like a MSI Seahawk Lightweight mount with a 30mm up front instead?) + a couple of GPMG, add a bit of Kevlar armour to the important bits, add the radar and sonar that Repulse suggests (drop the depth charges though to keep the RHIB) and paint the bloody thing grey!

I'm guessing £3.5m a pop all in, but if we ordered a big batch of them and not just for Gib the price would come down a bit. Bigger, faster (just) and better armed than the Scimitars, but only need 7 crew members (maybe up to 10 depending on the extra goodies installed). 2x boats for each naval base in the UK + Gib + Bahrain + 1 or 2 spare, we could possibly get the lot for the £45m mark (I'd even take them if the deal came closer to £70m after HMG would no doubt bugger it up somehow + defence inflation). Maybe create a 2nd Patrol Boat Squadron with them all in (bar the 2 for Gib) to go along side the UNRU Archers?

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Repulse » 18 Aug 2017, 07:52

Caribbean wrote:How about one of these? As a very young cadet at Renny Lentney, I had the privilege of taking a trip around the Eddystone lighthouse on Brave Borderer . She had been decommissioned only a few days before.
https://www.google.com/search?q=brave+b ... e&ie=UTF-8


Like it, but the crew numbers look high. Need something with a crew under 10 I'd think. What it does show is that there is a wealth of design that can be used and adapted.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Repulse » 18 Aug 2017, 08:00

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I do not think a 20m vessel can handle 40mm CTA cannon. Also I think it is toooooo-much over kill. If used in Portsmouth, on the line of fire there is surely an apartment or park or navy's base itself. I see no good point on arming port defense boat with such a large calibre cannons.


There is a wealth of designs that have carried similar weapons admittedly at around 70ft so would be a few more metres and break the divat restriction, but on reflection as Habour/Seaward Defence would be it's primary role then if additional length is needed so be it.

In terms of weapons, I cannot see how spraying GPMGs is any safer to an automated cannon or LMM (which is designed to operate in crowded waters). Also, GPMGs have virtually no value against larger targets or UAVs. How long before terrorists hijack / hire boats to ram other ships?

Basing guns on the shoreline is an option, but would be more limited in scope of operations and last resort.
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby RunningStrong » 18 Aug 2017, 08:48

donald_of_tokyo wrote:I do not think a 20m vessel can handle 40mm CTA cannon. Also I think it is toooooo-much over kill. If used in Portsmouth, on the line of fire there is surely an apartment or park or navy's base itself. I see no good point on arming port defense boat with such a large calibre cannons.

You would potentially get a very versatile capability of the CT40 comes to full fruition. The ability to fire a variety of rounds including air burst would certainly give you the ability to engage everything from small warships to unarmoured fast boats and small aerial targets.

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Repulse » 18 Aug 2017, 09:22

The Mintcake Maker wrote:Did you see my post at the end of page 1 viewtopic.php?p=50334#p50334 Repulse and Donald-san?


I did, but think the upaper deck is too cluttered. Compare it to something like the HMS Medusa.

Image
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby marktigger » 18 Aug 2017, 11:20

take a look at the US cyclone class for armament USN officer in Um Qasar talked me through the armaments they carried for 1 patrol boat it was scary

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby Repulse » 21 Aug 2017, 09:58

Cyclone class are interesting and although the USN said they were worthless they have been in the Gulf for a number of years now. I'd say the RN should have something similar, perhaps an extension to the HDMLs I'm proposing.

What I think would be an interesting (fantasy) option is a modern version of Pathfinder class:

Image

Replace the 4.5inch guns fore and aft with BAE 57mm ones, and the 40mm Bofors with a CIWS; would keep any swarm away (or Spanish ship) :)
"For get this quite clear, every time we have to decide between Europe and the open sea, it is always the open sea we shall choose." - Winston Churchill

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Re: Scimitar Class Patrol Vessel (RN)

Postby ArmChairCivvy » 21 Aug 2017, 12:13

Repulse wrote:Replace the 4.5inch guns fore and aft with BAE 57mm ones


I would say that your wish (57 mm) had already been granted in the photo, as per this fro Tony Williams website:
" Complete in its mounting, it weighed 1,747 kg, and the gun was known to the RN as the 6 pdr QF Mk IIA. Nearly 600 of these guns were made.

The RN developed its own loading for the ammunition, consisting of a 2.7 kg HE shell fired at only 655 m/sec. The low velocity may be due to the fact that the RN specified a flashless propellant charge, presumably because MTBs usually operated at night."


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