UK Defence Forum

I realise that militaty Internet forum debates can often become a game of Top Trumps, wishing for bigger and bigger caliber weapons. But in the case of protecting UK naval bases from terrorist attack, any weapon system is the last resort and must be able to be used in locations often crowded with merchant ships, ferries and civilian pleasure craft.

Mostly ignored/forgotten because they are much less visible, but far more useful, are the intelligence, surveillance, command and control capabilities. If the only thing deterring a terrorist attack was the weapon system, we would be in deep trouble - even if it was a Mark VI patrol boat with 25mm chain guns.

The best and first defence against terrorists is for those who know the terrorist (friends, family) to feel safe enough to be able to report odd behaviour to the police and to trust that any actions taken will be both safe and fair.

The best and first defence against terrorists is, therefore, the UK culture of fairness and justice for all.

Archer class vessels HMS Dasher (P280) and HMS Pursuer (P273) met with aircraft carrier HMS Queen Elizabeth which is anchored in the Moray Firth at noon.
They both just left QE at 12:45

That's a lot of Archers.

Nice looking boats

HMS Raider (P275) of the Faslane Patrol Boat Squardron (FPBS) escorts USS Maryland.

HMS Archer, HMS Explorer and HMS Exploit all in Falmouth this weekend. It's great to see these boats visible and something that the RN should do more of IMO - shame the Navy Day is no longer run.

SKB wrote:
HMS Raider (P275) of the Faslane Patrol Boat Squardron (FPBS) escorts USS Maryland.

Good to see an Archer 'gunned up' . Shame it's not a .50 up front, or at least twin Gympys or a Mk 44 ?

5 Archer Class Fast Patrol Vessels are joining Ballots 2019, including HMS Exploit, of Birmingham URNU.
Who are manning them?

HMS Biter (P270)




(Photos: @NavyLookout)

In September 2019, HMS Biter (P270) became the second currently-active RN vessel to feature decorative features on it hull, the first being HMS Dragon (T45). More recently, HMS Tamar (River OPV) became the third.

Lots of excitement whether HMS Pursuer and HMS Dasher are going to be based in Gibraltar or Cyprus at the moment - or if it’s all hot air.



My personal view is that forward basing these small craft for Port and general Low level Maritime Security is needed and also provides great training and visible (but appropriate) RN global visibility.

IIRC Pursuer and Dasher are the only two with the deck reinforcement needed to actually mount a 20mm gun. They used to form the Cyprus Squadron in years past. I seem to remember suggesting that they could be allocated to the Gibraltar Squadron back when the speculation first started about the new boats (though I hoped that they would have had some engine upgrades to make use of their 45-knot design speed)

I would agree if we are going down this route ( unless it is a stop gap ) I would have liked to have seen some upgrades like engines to allow something like 35 knots and twin GAU-19 mounts would be a good start

I’m hoping they are for Cyprus and there will be an order soon to replace them and the two Scimitar In Gibraltar. Relatively cheap for a visible presence.

The original Facebook post from 17 Port and Maritime Regiment has been deleted - probably because of adverse comments. That's likely more evidence that they're heading to Gibraltar as replacements for Scimitar and Sabre.

Are Scimitar and Sabre not only considerably newer, but also smaller and more suited to Gibraltar service? No need for a 20mm mount, larger crew or cadet facilities.

With the majority of the boats (apart from Faslane Sq.) now 32 years old, surely they're ready/overdue for a replacement?

For comparison:

ARCHER P2000 CLASS
Type: Patrol boat & training vessel
Displacement: 54 tonnes
Length: 20.8 m
Beam: 5.8 m
Draught: 1.8 m
Propulsion: 2 shafts, Cat C18 ACERT diesels
Speed: 25 kn (46 km/h), 45 kn (83 km/h) (Hull design, but limited due to engine fitted)
Range: 550 nmi (1,020 km)
Crew Complement: 18 (training), 12 (operational)
Sensors and processing systems: Decca 1216 navigation radar
Armament: 1 × Oerlikon 20 mm cannon on fo'c'sle ("for but not with"), 3 × General purpose machine guns (Tracker & Raider)


SCIMITAR CLASS
Type: Patrol boat
Displacement: 24 tonnes
Length: 16 m (52 ft 6 in)
Beam: 3.1 m (10 ft 2 in)
Draught: 1.2 m (3 ft 11 in)
Propulsion: 2 shafts, 2 × MAN 2480LXE diesels
Speed: 32 knots (37 mph; 59 km/h)
Range: 260 nmi (480 km) at 19 kn (35 km/h)
Crew Complement: 7 (1 officer, 6 ratings)
Sensors and processing systems: Racal-Decca Bridgemaster 360, I band navigation radar
Armament: 2 × General purpose machine guns (stern-mounted)

Given past form, safe to assume this is another stealth cut

dmereifield wrote:Given past form, safe to assume this is another stealth cut

May be. But, if it is stealth cut, I think it is because of introducing 5 River B2 while keeping 3 (of the 4) River B1s. Huge increase in OPV capability. Also note that one River B2 are to go to Gibraltar. If it will have 2 P2000 and 1 River B2, it will be a huge leap compared to current 2 Sabres?

donald_of_tokyo wrote:

dmereifield wrote:Given past form, safe to assume this is another stealth cut

May be. But, if it is stealth cut, I think it is because of introducing 5 River B2 while keeping 3 (of the 4) River B1s. Huge increase in OPV capability. Also note that one River B2 are to go to Gibraltar. If it will have 2 P2000 and 1 River B2, it will be a huge leap compared to current 2 Sabres?

Well, let's see if a River B2 is home ported there, or of it's a one off deployment later in the year

Not widely publicised but the 1st Patrol Boat Squadron is being renamed Coastal Forces Squadron; in addition the RN is forming a Overseas Patrol Squadron. The latter is assumed to be a rename and expansion of the Fisheries Protection Squadron made up of all 8 Rivers; it has a rather odd page on the RN website:

https://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-l ... l-squadron

Question is, will this Overseas Patrol Squadron be limited just to Rivers or will have other smaller P2000 and Scimitar sized ships also.

Within the last few years, the P2000 Archer class has gone through a engine refit/upgrade to a pair of CAT C18 873hp diesel engines coupled to ZF Marine 2000 V reverse reduction gearboxes. With this, their service life has been extended until around 2030.

The Scimitar class did not go through a similar upgrade as far as I am aware. With the delay in the purchase of their replacements, swapping them for more reliable P2000s makes sense, at least in the short term.