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Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Contains threads on Royal Navy equipment of the past, present and future.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 30 Apr 2017, 11:28

with the exception of faslane, the isues here are law enforcement, not military concern.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 30 Apr 2017, 11:43

What about our new bases at Bahrain and Oman they need a military presence in a terbilant area don't they ? And I'd argue that with the increas in Spanish incursion in Gibraltar I'd argue a couple of better armed patrol boats would help ally there.

The US's thinking from what Iv read on these seems to be that they will also use them in a big part for counter terrorism around the coast lines and ports.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Repulse » 01 May 2017, 08:42

As others have said here, the UK has responsibility for a number of territories - Gibraltar and Cyprus to name just two that needs something larger than a machine gun to defend it's waters and also any terrorist attack.

The UK also have a number of sensitive costal sites where something more is needed and should not be left to the police and needs the ability to operate in a mixed environment without endangering others. It's time the UK got serious in my view.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby RetroSicotte » 03 May 2017, 12:10

At most I'd say put a single DS30M or even an old 20mm Oerlikon onto the smaller vessels.

Any more is overkill for the role.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 03 May 2017, 12:18

The basic fit out of the MK vi is for 2 remote controlled 25mm chain guns and 6 General perpouse machine guns.
It has the ability to have grande lurnchers, mini guns or missile lurnchers added if needed

I keep going back to that vessel just because it's the most modern one Iv seen out there for this roll at the min.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Caribbean » 03 May 2017, 12:38

The Archer is really designed for the training role, with downgraded engines and a larger than needed deckhouse to accommodate bigger groups on training exercises. They can fit a single 20mm and a couple of 7.62/12.7mm guns (so a couple of GMGs would probably fit as well), and so could probably be upgraded for a force-protection role, if needed. They are also cheap to buy and run (c £500k pa). The Mk VI is, frankly, in a different league, both cost and capability-wise.
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 03 May 2017, 13:14

I understand that the main roll of the arches is just for training but they seem to being unitised for port protection while being very under equipped for the role ie clyed and Gibraltar.

Port protection and anti terrorism seem to have been very neglected over recent years by our selfs and the US ( US now realising that ). Something along the lines of the MK vi could solve the problem with have in these areas aswell as being used for training.

Ports that will need better protection over the coming years will be Clyed, Gibraltar, Bahrain, Oman and portmouth ( because of the QEs )

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby PAUL MARSAY » 08 May 2017, 12:03

The Archer class does need replacing / supplementing with an upgunned version for coastal / harbour defense . I believe RN vessels should be well armed , unarmed vessels belong in the civilian arena .

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 May 2017, 14:03

PAUL MARSAY wrote:The Archer class does need replacing / supplementing with an upgunned version for coastal / harbour defense . I believe RN vessels should be well armed , unarmed vessels belong in the civilian arena .
Sorry, do not agree. Every good Navy is made of armed AND un-armed vessels, well balanced. See USN. They are not full of armed vessels, even though they have a large coast-guard. UK, without a CoastGuard, do need descent number of un-armed/littel-armed vessels. For Archer replacements, how about Canadian Orca-class or Australian PPB-R class?

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 08 May 2017, 14:11

Donald my big problem with either of those option is they are both much larger and cost a hell of a lot more than even the MK iv, the PPB-R is approaching closer to a river class really.

What we need the archer replacement to do is port protection, fast response for aint terrorism and training.
So something slightly larger than the archers, faster and for the port protection ones need to be armed else they'll deter no one

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 May 2017, 14:28

Thanks Jake1992-san. I short-cut too much, sorry.

A- Archer is the best asset for URNU. If URNU is vital part of the navy, there shall be "like-for-like" replacements. No Mk. VI (too high speed, too much armed), no Orca (larger) nor PPB-R (more larger). Done. Ship needed for port-defense in the front-line shall be vastly different from those needs for seamanship training.

B- If URNU is not vital (for example, if it is OK with sharing 1 vessel within 3 URNU), the boat can be larger. In this case, Orca or PPB-R can come in. PPB-R (pacific patrol boat) is 40m long, cheap, easy to operate, steel-hull, patrol boat (similar to UKBF 42m Customs Cutter) which can operate in the channel, or deep in the Irish sea (may be not enough to go for the North Sea). So, I just forgot to point out "UKBF 42m Customs Cutter" also as a candidate.

But, yes anyway, option-A, like-for-like replacements will be the default. Impressive is that the FRP-based boat has very very long life. See Hunt-class. So just overhauling Archer will be the option-C?

On the other hand, for port defense, we need something else, such as Mk.VI, or CB90, I agree.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 08 May 2017, 15:06

I can complety understand your line of thought on this and agree with almost all of it. My only problem I see with what your surgesting is that we'd end up with 2 different vessels for training and port protection and so on, which as a whole is the best way but with funding they way it is we would lose the econemy of scale.

This is why I keep going back to the MK iv as it is about the right size for training but packs the speed and armerment needed for port protection. I'd really like to hear what other vessels along these lines are out there to compare them.

I like the CB90 and it looks very good for the RM and even port protection but I don't think it would quick fit the training role

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby donald_of_tokyo » 08 May 2017, 17:18

Jake1992 wrote:I can complety understand your line of thought on this and agree with almost all of it. My only problem I see with what your surgesting is that we'd end up with 2 different vessels for training and port protection and so on, which as a whole is the best way but with funding they way it is we would lose the econemy of scale.

This is why I keep going back to the MK iv as it is about the right size for training but packs the speed and armerment needed for port protection. I'd really like to hear what other vessels along these lines are out there to compare them.

I like the CB90 and it looks very good for the RM and even port protection but I don't think it would quick fit the training role
Looking around, I found it very difficult to unite the class for training and that for port defense.

It is like unifying mini-couper with porsche. Thus, I think there shall be a dedicated class for Archer replacement, and another class for Simitar and port-defense role. The latter could be CB90 or Mk.VI. The former could be aiming at any cheapest solution, such as Stan-2205?

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 08 May 2017, 17:41

I agree that would be the best way to go I can just see the RN going down a one class rout to get the econemy of scale due to funding.

What else is there out there that could be used for port protection and Gibraltar besides the MK iv and the CB90 ?

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 08 May 2017, 18:22

This, because it looks cool as shit!

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 08 May 2017, 18:55

I hate to burst anyone's bubble, but I believe that the P2000 Archer class has gone through a recent engine refit/upgrade to a pair of CAT C18 873hp diesel engines coupled to ZF Marine 2000 V reverse reduction gearboxes. With this, their service life has been extended for another 15 years. So no replacements anytime soon.

As I have mentioned before, if the RN ever finds funds to replace the Archer class, I'd suggest the Interceptor Craft 20 M RW design from Docksta Varvet.

http://www.dockstavarvet.se/products/combat-and-patrol-boats/interceptor-craft-20-m/interceptor-craft-20-m-rw/general-arrangements/

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 08 May 2017, 19:17

If the archers are staying around for that long then the RN does need to look in to a port protection vessel. Have ports like the Clyde protected by an unarmed vessel is a big risk aswell as a joke, Portsmouth will also be a big risk when the QEs are there. As for Gibraltar we've seen that something with a bit more of a punch is needed the same will said with Bahrain

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 08 May 2017, 19:40

HMNB Clyde is protected by 43 Commando Fleet Protection Group Royal Marines (43 Cdo FPGRM) with (amongst other assets) two Island Class Patrol Boats – called “Mull’ and “Rona".

43 Cdo are very far from being unarmed!

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 08 May 2017, 20:01

Hi aethulwulf would you be able to tell me what fast interception craft they use and what sort of armerment they have as in unsure on it, last I read 2 archer were being used in that role on the Clyde.

We would still need to protect other vital or contested ports ( Portsmouth, Gibraltar, Bahrain, Oman )

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby RichardIC » 08 May 2017, 20:08

Jake1992 wrote:We would still need to protect other vital or contested ports ( Portsmouth, Gibraltar, Bahrain, Oman )


Who is contesting Portsmouth, and in what way is Portsmouth unprotected?

and Bahrain and Oman are protected by the sovereign powers (which isn't us).

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Jake1992 » 08 May 2017, 20:16

What way is Portsmouth protected from any aggressor in say s fast small vessel ? It's going to be the home port of our 2 new big shiny supper carriers that would be a very nice target.

So we won't bother to put any protection of our own in over sea ports like Bahrain and just leave it up to others ?
This shows our neglect of things like port protection and small craft interception, the US have done the same over the years but are now correcting that. At there over sea ports in the gulf they are putting their own protection in so not to be reliant on others

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby shark bait » 08 May 2017, 21:25

in case france get real pissed with our post brexit frogs leg tax?
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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 08 May 2017, 22:02

Jake1992 wrote:Hi aethulwulf would you be able to tell me what fast interception craft they use and what sort of armerment they have as in unsure on it, last I read 2 archer were being used in that role on the Clyde.

We would still need to protect other vital or contested ports ( Portsmouth, Gibraltar, Bahrain, Oman )

As I already mentioned, amoung other assets, RM have two Island Class Patrol Boats. Oddly enough, precise and full details of the protection measures provided for HMNB Clyde and its the nuclear submarine base are classified and are not going to be revealed on a public forum. But you can be sure that a full range of counter-terrorism measures are available.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2013/march/07/130307-rm-island-class-vessels

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby Aethulwulf » 08 May 2017, 22:27

Jake1992 wrote:What way is Portsmouth protected from any aggressor in say s fast small vessel ? It's going to be the home port of our 2 new big shiny supper carriers that would be a very nice target.

http://www.mod.police.uk/specialist/marine.html
MOD Police Marine Units are part of the protection measures at HMNB Portsmouth, Devonport and Clyde.

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Re: Archer Class Patrol & Training Vessel (PBR) (RN)

Postby cpu121 » 08 May 2017, 22:34

Aethulwulf wrote:
Jake1992 wrote:Hi aethulwulf would you be able to tell me what fast interception craft they use and what sort of armerment they have as in unsure on it, last I read 2 archer were being used in that role on the Clyde.

We would still need to protect other vital or contested ports ( Portsmouth, Gibraltar, Bahrain, Oman )

As I already mentioned, amoung other assets, RM have two Island Class Patrol Boats. Oddly enough, precise and full details of the protection measures provided for HMNB Clyde and its the nuclear submarine base are classified and are not going to be revealed on a public forum. But you can be sure that a full range of counter-terrorism measures are available.

http://www.royalnavy.mod.uk/news-and-latest-activity/news/2013/march/07/130307-rm-island-class-vessels
Until they're published in Navy News! ;)

https://navynews.co.uk/archive/news/item/15105

HMS Tracker and Raider have 3x GPMGs.


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